It’s been a working summer for Warren Haynes with the Gov’t Mule guitarist, once again, a man in motion: compiling a 1994 debut recording session of the original Mule line-up, featuring drummer Matt Abts and the late Allen Woody on bass, for the Tel-Star Sessions release, undertaking a national tour fronting another round of Jerry Garcia Symphonic Celebration shows, then hitting the road again with Gov’t Mule for a run of over 40 dates through October. Haynes took time on a rare day-off to speak to us about covering such a vast array of material, the early days of Mule, and what it’s like to play Jerry Garcia’s music on Jerry Garcia’s guitar.
Whether it’s playing a Radiohead song with ChessBoxer on last fall’s tour, or taking on the catalog of Jerry Garcia with a symphony, how do you remain true to the intent of a song yet make it your own?
Sometimes just interpreting the song with our collective personalities takes it to a different place automatically. Sometimes we have an idea on how to change it around, in some cases quite drastically. I guess it changes from song to song. When people ask me what makes me choose a cover song, I think, “Well, there are three reasons: one would be if it was a song I always felt like singing; one would be if it was a song I wished I had written; one would also be if I feel like we could take it somewhere to a unique place where we can re-interpret the song.” It can work in any of those capacities.
On the Tel-Star Sessions you do a great version of ZZ Top’s “Just Got Paid” that typifies that balance of intent and expression.
We had been playing “Just Got Paid” live at the handful of shows that we had done. We thought, well, we’re in the studio, maybe we should do one take of it and see how it turns out. To my knowledge, we didn’t do a second take. We liked the way it came out so I thought it was cool to include it. Those were the very first sessions we ever did. Even a lot of the songs from our first records had not been written yet. These were the songs we chose for what we thought was going to be the first album, before we made the decision to put it on the shelf and keep moving forward.
What I hear is a band that was approaching the material not in a loose, informal sense, but instead was very focused. Was that the idea or was that something that was there naturally?
That was the way the chemistry presented itself at the very beginning. We could go off on tangents and into unchartered territory, but it still retained a sense of focus just by the chemistry the three of us had. That’s the kind of thing that makes you want to start a band. We expanded on that, and every six months the chemistry would get pushed in other directions, but these sessions captured that unique chemistry we had from the very beginning before we took it further and further out. When I listen to it now, it reminds me how wonderfully Matt and Woody played together from the first day.
How difficult was it for you to listen to Woody’s playing on those sessions? It must’ve been emotional.
From time to time we all get emotional when you speak about Woody. For the most part, you just think of the funny times; all the joy that was spread. When I first went back and listened to these recordings, I was grinning ear to ear, thinking, “Goddamn, listen to Woody. He’s smoking.” I think these recordings capture some of his best playing ever.
Were you writing to that aspect of strength for the band or were the originals things that you had in your catalog and you were looking for a home?
None of these songs, as far as the original songs, had been written prior to the concept of Gov’t Mule coming into fruition. “Monkey Hill” and “Blind Man in the Dark” and “Rocking Horse” had been worked up in rehearsal, and we had been playing them onstage in those handful of shows we did. “World of Difference” and “Left Coast Groovies” were written in the studio during those sessions. So, they were all written with Gov’t Mule in mind. It wasn’t until the second or third record that I would start thinking, do I have any songs in my back catalog that no one’s ever heard that might be perfect for Gov’t Mule? That’s where songs like “I Shall Return” or “Falling Down” would come from.
Is that it for studio archive material or might we hear more in the future?
As far as studio recordings, there isn’t any more stuff with Allen Woody. There is an alternate version of “Blind Man in the Dark” that we recorded for the first record, and an alternate version of “No Need to Suffer,” neither of which made the cut for the first record. There is virtually nothing else that exists of Woody in the studio. There are some interesting outtakes from the Deep End sessions; three blues songs we recorded with Jack Casady and Pete Sears that we recorded that we never listened to since we recorded them. At some point I’d like to go back in and listen to all that stuff.
Did the process of putting the album together remind you of things you were doing then that maybe you’ll revisit?
The four of us listened to it on the bus after it was mixed and mastered. We were all laughing, saying, “Listen to that, listen to that.” Just soaking it up in a common, unspoken way, not really thinking let’s revisit this or that. But, I do have a feeling that some of the approaches and some of the arrangements will kind of find their way back into what we’re doing now. Songs like “Blind Man in the Dark” has a completely different approach then than what is how we do it now. It would probably be a nice dirt road to go down to revisit some of that stuff.
Photo by Dino Perrucci
Switching to the Jerry Garcia Symphony performances, at the New York show you had the honor of using Jerry’s “Tiger” guitar. What kind of effect physically, emotionally, or otherwise does that have on a performance?
It affects me in every sense, starting with the fact that it physically plays differently than any of my guitars. Since I’m less familiar with it, I’m having to fight it in a fun, challenging sort of way. That, coupled with the unique sound that it has, forces me to take a different approach to what it is that I’m playing; bending less notes, playing more single-note, jazzier, bluegrass-type phrases. It lends itself toward a cleaner, bell-tone sound that also pushes me to play in a certain way. All the bells and whistles, all the switches and sound choices are still confusing to me because I’ve only played it a couple of times. So, I’m constantly experimenting with it: hitting a switch and going, Oh, that’s cool, or Oh, that’s not the one. It’s really a fun challenge, as is any time you play an instrument you’re not used to. The difference this time is that it is such a beautiful instrument that automatically makes these sounds that the audience connects with, that I connect with, and that puts me closer to that music.
I’ve read in previous interviews you often use the word spirit as a goal of sorts, to capture the spirit. How have you managed to do that so well in roles previously held by the likes of Duane Allman, Dickey Betts, and Jerry Garcia?
Any great band or any great artist has this personality that comes through in the music that is more important than the notes they play or the notes they sing. When you’re dealing with a collective personality, like a band, it’s all about this chemistry that happens when musicians play together, mostly in an unspoken way. It’s a form of communication. That’s what music is—a form of communication that sometimes can be more moving than words. Bands like the Allman Brothers and the Grateful Dead had that collective personality, that spirit of their music that existed on a level that when people copied it, it would always fall short. I learned a long time ago that the best thing you could do in that situation is to try and bring your own personality into the music because that’s what they did.
Can you give an example?
Capturing the spirit sometimes just means listening to it through the ears of a fan and letting osmosis do its work, and not trying to capture every nuance and figure out how they did this and that, but apply your own self to this school of music. It’s hard to put into words what that really means, but when I was asked to join the Allman Brothers in 1989, one of the things that qualified me to be there was how much I had studied that music, how much I loved that music, and how much it meant to me as an influence.
And, also you have so many other influences, as well, similar to how Duane and Dickey had many influences.
I have tons of influences that go across the board, from jazz to blues to folk to soul music, which was my first love. The ones that hit me the hardest are really timeless; taking timeless ingredients and forging them together in a way that creates unique music or a unique spirit. It starts with the way you listen to music, the way you study music, and having the reverence for the music that is demanded.
Was the same true of the Grateful Dead’s music?
When I first started playing with Phil (Lesh), I didn’t know nearly as much about the Grateful Dead music as thousands of other guitar players who had probably studied it more intently than myself. As a singer, I would try and listen and intentionally not sound like something that had happened before, but to capture the essence of it. I really immersed myself into that music, although I did become a fan sometime around ’89. I was starting to really study and discover that music. It was well into the ‘90s when I started playing with Phil and still there was a lot of songs I didn’t know. I wasn’t someone that had listened to 500 Dead shows. I would try and listen to as much of it as possible, get ideas—seeds that were planted- but I never wanted to copy anything that any of them had done. I just wanted to bring my personality a little closer to the table.
How have you been able to bring your personality to the Garcia Symphony shows?
When I first got the call three years ago from the Jerry Garcia Estate, they said they had this idea of doing Jerry’s music with symphonies and some guest artists. They wanted to know if I wanted to be the first guest artist. I said, “Absolutely, I would be honored to do that.” They let me go through the catalog and pick the songs that I felt represented the best married to a symphony. They let me take my arrangement ideas and give them to the orchestral arrangers. One of the things that was really important to me was how do we maintain the spirit of improvisation that was so important to the Dead and so important to Jerry while working with a symphony which doesn’t improvise?
To use your analogy of music being communication, a symphony score is like a transcript of a conversation rather than one being created in the moment. How did you tackle that?
I came up with three ways of doing that. The first was there are times when the symphony will stop playing and the electric band will improvise to our heart’s content, and on-cue the symphony will come back in. Another way of doing it was—I’m the only person not reading music—I’m listening to the symphony and what they are playing, and in some of the improvisational moments, they’re playing the same every night, but what I’m playing is drastically different every night. The third, and probably the most unique way, is that some of the scores were written from what was originally improvised (by the Grateful Dead).
Really?
I’ll give you two or three examples. The “Dark Star,” which is the way the show opens, I took a recording of a version of “Dark Star” from 1968 and gave it to Steven Bernstein, who did the arrangement. I took this four-minute window of improv, and he took it and applied all the aspects of improvisation to the different instruments in the symphony. So there are no repeating patterns, no themes; it’s all just what was originally improvised now scored for this massive orchestra. The version of “Bird Song” was a version with Branford Marsalis, so not only are Jerry, Bob, and Phil’s parts assigned to the orchestra, but also Branford’s, which is total improv. The final effect is symphonic music that doesn’t really reflect what we think of as symphonic music. I’m sure it’s a trip for the orchestra to start out the show with something that was originally improvised.
I would guess the orchestra shapes the music in its own way, too.
In Pittsburgh, two-and-a-half years ago, the conductor and the symphony started playing the score without swinging it—with a straight beat. It sounded more baroque, more classical, more like a symphony piece that way. We decided to keep it that way. It’s a cool interpretation. People have never heard it this way before. And, I heard Jerry always wanted to hear his music done with a symphony. It’s really, in a lot of cases, the sign of a great song, to interpret it in so many ways. In this case, a completely different way, which is why I think it’s important we pick the right songs that marry themselves to a symphony.
Is there a cumulative effect on the upcoming Mule tour from a summer of putting together the Tel-Star Sessions album and the Garcia Symphonic shows?
I think any time I go from one project to another to another, it’s bound to influence the way I’m going to look at the next thing. In some cases, it’s just this fresh energy that comes with each one. In some cases I may be cognizant of certain experiences and thinking of applying them to what’s coming in the future. Mostly, it’s kind of osmosis, however one phase is affected by the other without me thinking about it. That’s a big part of what music is and what music should be.
Can Mule fans expect some surprises?
For us, it’s always important to go somewhere we’ve never gone. That speaks not to just the upcoming original material, but also to how we approach the live shows; the balance of old to new, and songs to improvisation. It’s always fun to try and find different ways of utilizing the chemistry. I think the last shows we’ve done recently, we just started scratching the surface on some new stuff we’ll be exploring, which is really fun.
