It’s impressive enough that the “official” history of Hot Tuna as a living, breathing band begins in 1969. The fact of the matter is, you can actually trace Tuna’s roots back another 11 years – as 1958 marks the first time that bassist Jack Casady and guitarist/vocalist Jorma Kaukonen played music together … and plugged in or unplugged, there’s no Hot Tuna without Jack and Jorma. While the band’s roster (and sound) has grown and shrunk (and grown and shrunk) over the years as many talented players have shared the Tuna experience, the one constant has been Jack and Jorma’s long-standing friendship.
2011 sees Hot Tuna fired-up and sounding better than ever. The present core line-up of Casady, Kaukonen, mandolinist Barry Mitterhoff, and drummer Skoota Warner will be touring the US beginning in late January, followed by the release of a new studio album (the first in 20 years) in April.
Jambands.com recently had the chance to talk with both Jorma and Jack about their new album ( Steady As She Goes, to be released 4/12/11 on Red House Records) and the current version of Electric Hot Tuna on the eve of tour, which kicks off at the Bergen PAC in Englewood, NJ on Friday night.
Part I – Jorma Kaukonen
The long-limbed, wild-haired, gold-toothed, furry freak of yesteryear is now a slicked-back big ol’ bear of a man – but Jorma Kaukonen’s passion for life has only intensified with time … and there’s still plenty of freak left when he goes deep into a jam. When not at home with his family on his Fur Peace Ranch (a music mecca in its own right), Kaukonen continues to tour the world with guitar in hand and a smile on his face.
The kind of musician blessed with the ability to make the largest of venues seem like an intimate living room, Kaukonen recently celebrated his 70th birthday at New York’s Beacon Theater with an impressive roster of musical guests. We began our visit with a discussion of age.
BR: Before we start on the upcoming Hot Tuna album, I wanted to extend a belated “Happy 70th” to you. I wish I’d been at those birthday shows at the Beacon Theater in December.
JK: Those were amazing nights; they truly were.
BR: Do you remember a time early on in your life when you thought about what you might be doing when you were 70 years old? Or even, say, 40?
JK: (laughs) I remember when I was first starting to play fingerstyle blues and stuff, I perceived myself as a “seasoned bluesman” and at that point in time, my parents were … oh my gosh … they were probably just barely 50, right? (laughter) They were ancient, you know? (laughter)
BR: Oh yeah – for sure!
JK: It’s funny stuff when you look back on it – very funny stuff.
BR: So not only are you alive –
JK: I am! (laughter)
BR: – but making music and enjoying life, as well.
JK: Absolutely, brother – absolutely.
BR: And 50-years-plus since you first met, you and Jack are still … well … you and Jack.
JK: Well, exactly. We’ve been buddies for a very long time and it’s just how it is. There’s no way you could script this, but we’ve been friends since he was in jr. high and I was in 10th grade … and that was very definitely a few years ago. (laughter) We’ve been playing music together since 1958 – and that’s unbelievable, really. Jack and I are different people, but we’ve always respected each other as men and as artists even before those concepts ever meant anything to us … we just did, and that’s how it was.
Jack’s an amazing man, he really is. His commitment to what I perceive to be purity in his art is the way it ought to be.
BR: The last time we talked was after you did the sessions for River of Time [Jorma’s 2009 solo album] and I remember how much you loved recording in Levon Helm’s studio and working with everybody there. I wasn’t surprised to find out that you went back to Levon’s to record the new Hot Tuna album, Steady As She Goes.
JK: One obvious question – and I thank you for not asking it directly, although I would’ve happily answered it – that I get get when I talk about this is, “Why did it take so long for another Hot Tuna project?” It’s kind of a tricky question and there’s a lot of levels to it.
First of all, to answer your question: yes, I really have been looking forward to doing a band project at Levon’s. You know, Jack and I have never stopped playing together, but now we have a group of guys – this core band of Jack and I with Barry Mitterhoff and Skoota Warner – that all of us are extremely happy with. I’ve been doing more writing and I like where I’ve been going with it.
And, my interaction with Larry Campbell and his circle of family and friends has really opened some doors. Larry’s a great guy; we’ve been friends for a long time. River Of Time was such an easy album to make – we did it in, like, five or six days. For me, the chemistry is just fantastic working with Larry – and I just knew before Jack and the rest of the guys met Larry that the same would be true for all of us. And it was.
So, a lot of synchronous events just sort of came together to really make it be the right time. And to be honest with you, we didn’t have a record company before and that had a lot to do with it, as well. For awhile, we were just thinking about doing it ourselves. And then a year and half or so ago, I was talking with Eric Peltoniemi, who’s the big dog at Red House and an old friend of my family. I told Eric, “Look, I’m happy to be a solo artist with you guys, but I’m just going to throw this out there because we’re friends – and if the answer’s no, that’s fine. What would you think about a Hot Tuna album?”
They got excited about it; it just seemed like the stars were aligning in a perfect way, you know?
BR: Things happen when they’re supposed to.
JK: They do – they really do.
Many people put a lot of emphasis on planning every move in their lives and it sort of comes across like a military operation, you know? But even military operations don’t come off like military operations. (laughter)
BR: Justin Guip, the house engineer at Levon’s Barn – he’s awfully good at what he does, isn’t he?
JK: Justin’s another great team member.
BR: I’ve enjoyed talking to him about past projects. He talks about the Barn like that’s his instrument, you know?
JK: And it is – that’s a great way to put it. Justin is a consummate professional in his own right; and he simply loves the music. He’s also a great drummer, by the way – he played on my River Of Time album.
BR: I remember that. He swapped off with Levon and the energy never lagged. He could make a career just out of his drumming.
JK: Absolutely. Any band that works with Justin is going to benefit from it; and when he’s on board, he’s like another member of the family.
BR: So on the new album, Steady As She Goes, it was the core four of you, Jack, Barry Mitterhoff on mandolin, and Skoota Warner on drums – any other guests?
JK: Really, the only other people were Larry Campbell and his lovely wife Teresa Williams, who did some singing on some of the tracks. Believe me, if I could afford it and she were available, I’d have Teresa around making me sound good every time I opened my mouth. (laughs)
We got there and began doing some stuff and Larry asks, “Do you mind if I play guitar?” And I’m going, “I’d love for you to play some guitar.” So I’m doing the leads and Larry plays some rhythm guitar and some fiddle … which I haven’t even heard yet, as he did that after I left.
Once again, it was one of those things where whoever Larry’s working with – whether it’s Levon or it’s us or whoever – he knows who we are. Larry has that rare talent as a producer/musician to totally understand the guys who he’s working with and become part of their little family. It’s really unbelievable – it’s like he’s been part of the band forever.
BR: I remember thinking when I first heard the album the Black Crowes recorded at the Barn a couple of years ago that Larry didn’t change them to fit his vision; he became a Crowe.
JK: That’s right; and that’s the same thing he did with Hot Tuna. Larry has such an open heart and loves music so much that whoever he’s working with, he just gets into their space.
BR: In the nicest of ways.
JK: Oh, yeah. (laughter)
BR: The good folks at Red House Records sent me a couple unmastered cuts just to give me a little taste of what to expect on the album. One is “Angel Of Darkness” –
JK: (laughs) That’s a dandy, isn’t it?
BR: Oh, man – you tell me: it’s like a cool mix of vintage Tuna – like a cut off of America’s Finest, maybe – with a freshness at the same time. I haven’t been able to pin it down yet …
JK: Well, again, that’s Larry. I’d written a bunch of songs, but I really didn’t want to write all the songs. I’d decided that I was really going to work on co-writing with other people on this album – the whole is oftentimes greater than the sum of the parts, right?
So I’d asked Larry to bring me a song, which he did: “Angel Of Darkness”, which I loved. At that point, it was just a verse and a chorus and Larry asked me, “How’d you like to write the rest of the lyrics?” And I just went, “Wow – that’s great.” It was a challenge for me – he already pretty much had the music.
When we got into cutting the tracks, Larry already had that signature rhythm guitar part that you hear. I’m obviously going to have to learn it to play it live, but on the album, what you hear is Larry doing the rhythm thing and I’m playing lead.
BR: That’s Larry on the … Jorma-ish part? (laughter)
JK: Yeah, I loved what he played; that drop-D tuning thing he was doing. I told him, “Lar, I can learn to do that so we can play it live, but I hate to overdub myself. Let’s play it live and play it together.” So that’s one of the things that adds a little magic to the chemistry.
You mentioned the freshness you heard; you know what it was like? In a way, it was like doing a Jefferson Airplane session where one of the other guys wrote the chart and I was really free for the lead stuff. I didn’t know where I was going with all the changes, you know what I mean? For me, it was really exciting in a way that, in some respects, I haven’t had for a great many years.
BR: Aw, that’s cool to hear. The other cut they shared with me was “Second Chances”, which is just lovely.
JK: Oh, thank you so much, man – thank you. That’s one that I wrote; actually, Barry helped me with the music on that. And then in the studio it was Larry who, when we talked about arrangements, would say, “Try this.” Or “Try that.”
I remember in the old days when the Airplane was recording: we had some great producers … but we must’ve given them such grief, you know? (laughter) ‘Cause everybody’s a genius, right? (laughter) If there’s one thing I’ve learned over the years, it’s that I may be good at what I do, but I don’t consider myself a genius. I’m open to suggestions.
So in the case of “Second Chances”, it was “What do you think about this?” “How about this?” We all worked together and came up with a beautiful version of the song.
BR: Absolutely. And who’s playing that sweet jazzy lead?
JK: (laughs) All I play is the acoustic guitar on that song – what you’re hearing is Barry on electric mandolin.
BR: No – really?
JK: Yeah – how about that? (laughs)
BR: Oh, man … what a great tone.
JK: It totally is.
BR: He sounds like a buttery old archtop or something. I never would have guessed it was Barry on mando. I mean, I play acoustic mandolin, but …
JK: And a lot of the time when we play, Barry’s on acoustic mandolin, of course … like when we’re doing our duo thing. But yeah – the electric mandolin is a totally different sound. And Barry’s a genius; he really is.
When Jack and I first asked him to play with us in Hot Tuna, Barry began to learn rock and roll like you would bluegrass or classical. Most of us just sort of blunder along – Barry takes it all in and makes it part of him.
We do a song on the album called “If This Is Love, I Want My Money Back” and I did a solo on it. After I cut the solo, I told Barry, “I want you to do like a Dickey Betts sort of thing – parallel lines to mine.” And Barry was like, “But every note you’re playing is a bent string …” Larry and I told him, “We know you can do it.” (laughs)
So Barry went over my solo, sat down, and played a parallel solo to mine on electric mandolin. If you play mandolin yourself, you know – when you bend one of those little strings a lot happens, right? You really gotta be good. And he nailed it – every single guitar trick that I did.
There are a number of great players out there, but I don’t know anybody who has taken the electric mandolin as far as Barry has on this album.
BR: I look forward to hearing it. You know, the bond between you and Jack and the way the two of you formation fly when you’re playing is one thing … but you and Barry have really developed something over these last few years as well, it seems.
JK: Absolutely. I think one of the things that’s really important – and it’s true for Jack and me, too – is that Barry and I are really good friends. Music in its finest possible sense is a great way to talk to friends … and we talk a lot to each other.
BR: That’s what the jams have always felt like – you were having conversations.
JK: We do, we do … I know there’s a lot of ways to approach playing music, but that’s what works for us.
BR: Do you usually write on the acoustic?
JK: Yes, I do. You know, I’ve never met a guitar I didn’t like – and I love all my guitars. But I hardly ever play electric guitar unless I’m playing with somebody else. Even if it’s going to end up as an electric song, I tend to write on the acoustic – not always, but usually.
BR: I had some more gearhead questions, but I was going to try to be good and not stray too far …
JK: Aw, come on – lay it on me. (laughs) Lay it on me.
BR: Okay … (laughter) Well, one thing is the Les Paul with the Bigsby tremolo that you’re playing these days in the electric Tuna setting. It seems like that’s replaced Big Red – your faithful old hollowbody Epiphone – as your main axe. What’s the story behind the Les Paul?
JK: It’s a great story, actually. I‘ve never been a Les Paul player before … and now that I am one, it’s one of those things where you wonder, “How could I have waited so long?” I still have Big Red – and I love it as well, but … you know, you get a new instrument and it gives you a little different perspective on stuff that you’ve been doing for years.
Anyway, I know this guy at Gibson USA down in Nashville and we were talking at a gig somewhere three or four years ago. I said, “Look, everybody’s always asking you guys for a free guitar – but I’m not asking for a free guitar. What I’d really love, though, is to buy a Les Paul with a whammy bar – I’ve always liked a whammy bar.”
He told me that they hadn’t made one for years, and I said, “Well, I’m throwing it out there, so if something pops up, let me know. Give me a decent artist’s price on it, and I’ll buy it.”
So one day a number of years later, a package shows up at the ranch. My wife Vanessa calls me and asks, “Did you order a guitar?” And I said, “No … open it up.” She does and tells me it’s a Goldtop Les Paul with a whammy bar.
BR: Oh, man …
JK: Yeah – it was one of those guitars of the month that they made a few years ago. Not a custom shop guitar, but one of those runs of a thousand that they’ll do. It was one of the first factory-installed Bigsbys that they’d done in a real long time. It’s a Les Paul 295 with a Florentine cutaway – a really beautiful guitar.
So I ended up leaving Big Red home, figuring that if I didn’t, I’d go back to the comfort zone, you know? I just took the Les Paul out on the road and played it … and ended up falling in love with it.
BR: And that’s what you use for the crunchy stuff on the new album?
JK: That’s right – and I play my Chet Atkins on the fingerpicking stuff. Now – seeing’s how we’re talking about gearhead stuff … (laughter)
We were at Levon’s studio and Larry’s got all these great old vintage amps and stuff, you know? The lead guitar on “Angel Of Darkness” is being played through an old high school PA amp made by Bogen.
BR: Bogen?
JK: Yeah – that’s what I was plugged into. It’s not made for guitars; it’s just a crummy little PA made for, like, announcing high school basketball games. (laughter) We used my Louis Electric speaker cabinet with it, but that was the amp.
Larry’s got a bunch of great gear. We did a Rev. Gary Davis song called “Children of Zion” and I used an Oahu steel guitar amp Larry had from back in the 1930s. It wasn’t as crunchy as the Bogen, but it’s got hair on it. (laughter)
BR: How much flatpicking vs. fingerpicking do you do on the new album?
JK: Actually, almost everything is flatpicked, except for some of the obvious acoustic things like “Second Chances” and “Things That Might have Been”. The electric stuff was almost all done with a flatpick.
BR: Wow – it’s been awhile, hasn’t it? I would’ve said you’ve been concentrating on your fingerpicking for years …
JK: Yeah, you’re right – I played more flatpicked guitar during the sessions for this album than I had in decades. I told Larry at one point, “You know, if I kept this up I could get good at it.” (laughter)
BR: And what drove you back to it?
JK: Well, part of it is having spent so many years with fingerpicks and doing that alternating thumb thing – sometimes it’s hard for me not to do that and it clutters up the rhythm track when you’re playing electric. Jack and Skoota play so tight on these songs and I just didn’t want to mess things up. I figured I’d play in a more traditional guitar player way and just play the notes that needed to be played. I tell you what: I was actually thrilled – thrilled – to be able to do that.
BR: When you’re writing – and I’m talking over the years, not just this album – do you hear Jack in your head? Do you think about what he’s going to do with a song?
JK: You know, I don’t. And I’ll tell you why: I know he’s going to do the right thing. I’ve never told Jack what to play; he always comes up with cool stuff. His musical taste is impeccable, as far as I’m concerned.
BR: I hear you. I’ve seen times in a live setting where you guys are free-falling and just going with it and suddenly you shoot him a look like he’s just gotten into your head and it’s weirded you out … in a great way.
JK: And it is a great way. I’ll tell you, it’s an interesting thing with Jack. When I improvise with people, I have collections of architected moves, you know … but when it comes time for Jack to take a solo, it’s almost like he’s channeling another universe. He comes up with so much different stuff; he’s relentless. It’s unbelievable to me. And you’re absolutely right: there are times when he’ll do something like that and I’ll shoot him the look – like, “Where did that come from?” (laughter)
BR: You mentioned improvisational moments; I think outside of the Tuna setting with Jack, my favorite examples of some of your live jamming were the shows you did with Phil Lesh & Friends a number of years ago. You and Steve Kimock were on guitar.
JK: Oh man – we had Steve out at the ranch in November. He’s such a brilliant guitar player … he really is.
That was so much fun playing those shows with Phil. I’ll tell you a quick story: Phil’s mantra was “Whatever happens, don’t quit playing.” And I remember we were on stage at the Warfield Theater jamming on “The Eleven” and we kept playing and playing and playing … and I went over to Steve and said to him, “Steve – I can’t think of anything else to play!”
And he said, “I can’t either – but don’t quit playing!” (laughter)
BR: I’m paraphrasing, but I remember Phil saying something to the effect of, “The songs are the islands; it’s how we sail from island to island … those journeys are what we’re after.” Something like that.
JK: Absolutely – and you can’t make those journeys if you don’t take the chances. We all know that some nights we’re more successful than others, but if you don’t take that risk, you’ll never find the treasure.
BR: Cool – that’s right. That’s right. So we’re on the eve of the electric Hot Tuna tour that’s coming up – besides the core four, who else will folks be seeing with you at the shows?
JK: Well, we’ve got G.E. Smith back on board –
BR: Oh, neat.
JK: Yeah, he’s taking a break from The Wall tour with Roger Waters; they’re not playing for a while, so he’s with us on this tour. And we have Charlie Musselwhite on harp, who is not only one of the great, great blues players but simply a tasteful, talented musician. I’m so looking forward to backing him on whatever he wants to do – and I know he’ll be doing some really sweet harp stuff on some of our tunes. I can hear him playing on “Second Chances”, you know?
Plus, we have Jim Lauderdale on board, as well. He’s one of my favorite songwriters and has a great, great voice. Jim can do it all; the consummate artist. I’m looking forward to not only having him do some of his stuff, but to sing some harmonies with me, as well.
BR: And folks will be hearing not only old Tuna favorites, but plenty of tunes from the new album as well?
JK: Absolutely – you bet.
BR: Well, great. Look, I’m going to let you go, but I’ll be talking to Jack a little later … is there anything you want me to mention to him or ask him about?
JK: Give him my best and tell him I’ll see him day after tomorrow – it’s tour time. (laughter)
Oh – you know what you should ask him? Ask Jack about the gear that he used during the sessions for the album. I’ll tell you beforehand: he used a tiny, little Alessandro tube amp. His bass sound on the album is awesome.
Ask him about that; that’ll be a half-hour right there. (laughter)
BR: Thanks for that – I will. And thanks for taking the time to talk, Jorma – I really appreciate it.
And congratulations on everything that’s going on in your world right now. You know, I’ve always thought that you had a great smile – but these days it seems to be brighter than ever, man.
JK: Well, you’re absolutely right. People ask me, “What was the best time of your life?” And I tell them, “Right now.”
BR: That’s my wife’s bumper sticker: “I’d rather be here now.”
JK: Well, count me in, brother – I’m right there, too.
Look for Part Two, a conversation with Jack Casady, to follow next week
