Photo by Ron Lyon
Despite more than three decades as a writer, recording and performing artist, it looks as if the time is now for Simon Townshend. Last November, he released his eighth solo album, Looking Out Looking In. It combines highly melodic material with introspective and observational lyrics, especially on standouts such as “Making Waves,” “Forever and Day” and the title track. While longtime Who fans will recognize a musical kinship to the solo work of his older brother Pete, his songs have their own distinct character.
Around the same time Looking Out came out in the U.S., he was on tour performing Quadrophenia with the Who. Unlike his previous work with the band, Townshend has a more prominent role playing guitar and singing lead on “Dirty Jobs.” The added responsibility comes about after adding guitar and backing vocals for Who concerts since 1996 and acted as Roger Daltrey’s right-hand man during several solo tours by the Who’s frontman.
While on the Quadrophenia tour he’s promoted the Simon Townshend brand with a combination of pre-show meet-and-greets, solo dates and internet interaction. Altogether, it works towards his artistic goal of staying busy and not allowing any moments to slip away.
Starting his musical career early, a nine-year-old Simon recorded backing vocals on the Who’s Tommy and then played the Newsboy in the 1975 film version of the rock opera. A few years later, he cut his teeth in English punk bands and followed that by putting out Sweet Sound, his 1983 major label solo debut. Simon acknowledges that since then it’s been a bumpy ride but remains pleased with what he’s accomplished, honest with any assessment of his work and steadfast in his desire to continue life as a creative being.
The following conversation tackles his solo career, growing role in the Who, Quadrophenia tour and being one part of the Townshend musical legacy that includes his father (saxophone), mother (singer), Rock and Roll Hall of Fame brother and Simon’s son (drummer).
JPG: You’re playing solo shows during gaps between Who shows. I saw the TRI Studios session. That’s your band, right?
ST: It’s what of my band I can get out to do it. I mean, I have a band that I use in England as well. These are guys…I’ve worked with Scott Deavours, the drummer on the Roger Daltrey tour. He brought in a bass player friend along, Dave Beste, who we auditioned for Daltrey’s band, I do believe. And then, I flew over my guitarist, Tony Lowe, a friend of mine, who plays second guitar. So yeah, it’s half my UK band. I thought it went really well. We only had one day’s rehearsal for that. It was very successful, actually.
JPG: It did go over quite well. Now, what was your son doing that you couldn’t pull him over, too? (He plays on Simon’s album.)
ST: Well, Ben just had twins earlier in the year, his wife had twins, and one of them died. So, his life has been turned upside down. Obviously, he’s done the album with me. I would like to have him out touring and gigging with me but it’s just not quite the right time for him. He’s talking about coming out with me next year when things settle down a bit at home and life gets a bit more organized and that.
I do love working with him. He has great empathy for my music like I do with Pete’s music. It’s kind of a family thing, isn’t it?
JPG: I was going to bring this up later but we can bring it up now. First off, my sympathies for his loss. Since you brought up working with your son Ben, I wanted to discuss the idea of several generations of Townshend musicians — your father and you and Pete and now Ben. I remember reading somewhere that Ringo Starr didn’t want Zak to play drums and according to legend Keith Moon showed him how to play. Were you the type of father that encouraged Ben or were you like, “Go be a doctor. Stay away from this business?”
ST: Well, at the time that Ben decided to play drums, he learned things very quickly. He’s one of those that can pick anything up and play. I am in a band with Zak but Zak was in a situation where he needed to go off and do a tour with his dad. I think he was doing the All-Star tour at the time. I had shows booked and Ben said, “Dad, I can do this. I’ve been practicing.” We did a rehearsal. He was a bit naive but he had the right energy and the right approach. He knew what to play and before long he was an amazing drummer. It just progressed from there.
When I’m recording, I love recording with Ben. He just slots in. He doesn’t overplay. Some musicians tend to get a little bit selfish in some respect. They want to prove themselves rather than enhance the songs that you’re working on. That’s annoying, being a writer and trying to be creative. You want parts that fit not parts that show off the individual. I certainly think that Ben played with great empathy towards what I was trying to achieve in the final end result. As I do with Pete, I believe that we have that umbilical cord between us that has the right intentions and has the right vibe.
JPG: Do you think with you and Ben and you and Pete that there’s a certain familial empathy where you know what they are trying to achieve?
ST: Definitely. We don’t have to say much. Put it that way. A lot of it is just automatically felt. That’s kind of what makes it special. I always remember seeing Spirit, Randy California and his father Ed Cassidy on drums, I always remember that being something special as well. I think people like to see a bit of family, don’t they? They like to see brothers on stage. When Pete and I play guitar together we play a sort of guitar duet on “The Rock” in Quadrophenia and people love that moment. I think that’s part of the reason for some bands’ success. Oasis has a brothers thing. It’s great. I think even sibling rivalry comes into it. It’s fun. People get a good feeling from that.
JPG: Yeah. but I think also, what I seem to like in the case of you and Pete is that it seems to be the anti-Gallagher or the anti-Davies where you aren’t punching each onstage?
ST: That’s yet to come.
JPG: I think you guys are probably past that point. I’d be surprised if that happened. Would have happened a long time ago. Keeping it in the family, your father was a musician, was there anything you learned from him as far as being a professional?
ST: Well, dad always used to say to me, “Keep writing. Keep writing Keep writing”. He became a very very able musician. He studied how to play and sight read music and played in a lot of trad jazz bands. He was very much a musician’s musician. He always impressed the idea on me to put being an artist at the forefront. He could see that I had a talent with words and melodies. It was clear that Pete had that. I think Pete also came in a time where having to play technically was important in order to keep his job in his band. They were doing a lot of covers. He was playing banjo in the very early days. That spilled out into a whole new era of music, the wave of rock music. Now, the digital age where people are actually not even playing instruments anymore and they’re making records. It’s a very different time.
I am 15 years younger than Pete as well, which people don’t realize that there’s a big age difference. What happened for me, my father said keep writing, keep creating and I went off on this artistic path. I always think of myself as an artist over musician. Having said that, in the last six years or so I’ve really put a lot of time into my playing, my learning and stretching myself, which has come at a great time for me because this Quadrophenia tour has landed at a time when I didn’t think that would ever come again, that opportunity to go out and be at front of house at a Who show singing “Dirty Jobs” in the lead vocal and I play lead guitar. It’s a great opportunity for me to show off what I’ve actually learned and how far I’ve come.
I’ve worked very hard, but there’s still this incredible artistic streak in me where my real roots are writing and recording new material and being expressive in that way. I count myself very lucky as well that I can do both. I’m lucky that I can go play in a club one night such as Joe’s Pub for 200-300 people, it’s small and it’s intimate, nose-to-nose, if you like, and it’s all very exposed playing in those environments. You’re on your own. You’re playing your music for a start. I play my own songs. And then, I can go out and play in an arena the next night [with the Who]. That’s a different buzz. So, I do count myself lucky and I’m enjoying the journey, if you like, and I’m enjoying what I do and I’m happy in my skin.
JPG: I find it fascinating when family members get into the same business. In your case you seem quite comfortable. Were you always that way or did you develop some thick skin…?
ST: No. It’s been an up and down ride. I’m probably feeling right now that I’m at my luckiest and my most prolific and my most settled. Obviously, when I was in my 20s, trying to break as a solo artist in that, as I mentioned earlier, that capitalist side of the music industry where everything was how successful someone is by how many records they sold, how much money they made or how high in the charts they are. The Who were at a point…they’ve always been famous to me because of the age difference. I grew up with a famous brother. So, nothing really changed there and they were really active in the early ‘80s, coming up with Who Are You in the late ‘70s and stuff, and that’s when I was doing punk music.
I suppose if I didn’t see it going on I might have found it more frustrating then, not being able to break through, but I’ve always been of the understanding and I’ve been a big Who fan. I’ve always understood that my brother is a special writer and I’ve always loved his work and been appreciative of it and been respectful and mindful of the fact that he is a very talented guy. I, obviously, know how hard it is to some people on the outside to accept another person from the same family but we are unique. My music is very different from Pete’s and we are unique. We got to where we are now and it is what it is. I have to accept that I didn’t go into global stardom when I was 20 years old but I can walk out and not get completely hassled all the time. So, I have benefits where I am. I still have a certain level of fame. I, now and again, have my moments to express myself and that’s wonderful. It’s all about the journey, isn’t it? And I’m really happy with where I am and how it’s gone.
JPG: As far as the Quadrophenia tour, I’ve read some reports that there’s been a production glitch here or there but, overall, it’s working better than ever. When past shows have been brought up, especially the initial one supporting it, the word was always about how difficult it’s been to put across live. Why is Quadrophenia so challenging to do?
ST: It’s a dark piece of music. For Pete it’s probably his darkest bit of music. It’s not the most commercial album. It’s not all about hit singles. It’s very artistic and quite deep. We had a lot of practice putting it over in the ‘90s, and before that the Who tried to do it in the ‘70s and it didn’t go on too well. It’s developed and we’ve created it in such a way now that it really is accessible. It’s got legs on this tour because it’s very much centered around the Who and the unit that remains of the Who and also the new Who, too, added on, me Zack and Pino. We kind of bring this vibe of newness to it. The combination works. That’s why it’s so successful. That and what they’ve done with the films to bring in Keith and John have made it special.
JPG: There is a stronger spotlight on you during this current tour.
ST: Yeah, there is.
JPG: It seems like it’s all fallen into place with the release of your new solo album, touring with Roger Daltrey on his solo dates playing Tommy, taking on a bigger role in the Who’s performances…
ST: Yeah, it’s a bit of everything. For starters I really pushed myself as an artist. I started in February of 2012 doing shows in the UK. Roger Daltrey landed a tour right on top of my tour, which meant I had to reschedule some shows. I was off doing three shows in the UK then flying to Italy to do a Tommy show then flying back to Birmingham to do a show there. Then, going back to France. It was tough. I had to be very together and focused on what I was doing.
All that plus the fact that with the Who I’ve been brought forward on the stage where I used to be at the very back of the stage doing backing vocals. Since the Olympics they’ve brought me to the forefront for that and they left me there. I think Pete counts on me in a way that’s developed. It’s a work towards that since the ‘90s where he was playing a lot of acoustic then and we had a big stage production around us. We had an arranger. We had guest stars. Now, it’s very much the Who with films of Keith Moon and John Entwistle brought into the show. We did the Who tour in ’04 and ’06, and those tours cemented Pino Palladino, the bass player, into the band. And it’s become a tight unit. By now given that extra responsibility of going out and being more involved and the timing of it had brought me a bit more notoriety. And the pressure of that and the responsibility makes you step up to the plate. Either you do or you don’t. And I’m doing a good job of doing what I do and people are responding to that.
I also go and meet the fans before the shows as well. I’ve been doing that every night. I didn’t realize, and I’m being serious when I say this, I did not realize how important it is to the fans that you go out and do that. Otherwise, I would have been doing it years ago. It’s not hard to do that. Pop out after you had a bit to eat and done your soundcheck. You’ve got a couple of hours to kill before a show. It’s not hard to go and find a bunch of people that want to get a few photos and things signed. It really means a lot to them, especially people who bring their kids along. It means a helluva lot to them, longtime Who fans and Simon Townshend fans as well; people who have come to see me. And it just means a lot to them. I’m really happy to do it. It’s helping me network my way out there.
And I’ve certainly used the internet as well, which relates to that last question you asked me. I’ve been interactive on the internet in terms of Facebook and the website and I’ve been making my own films and putting my own artistic touch on things. If I can’t sleep at night I don’t lay in bed. I get up and get my camera. I go out and I film and I put that to music and stick it up on YouTube. Everybody is interested in that hands-on stuff that’s done in 72 hours. You put it down, edit it and get it out there. I’m loving that.
JPG: It’s a lot better thing for a creative person to do that than say 20 years ago when there would be time to kill and you would be bored and end up downing a bottle of Jack Daniels.
ST: Yeah, well, those are days are gone for me. There was a time when that’s what we did. We did a lot of partying. I still like to have a party. I still like to hang out with my mates. I still do that but it’s not like it used to be where it’s all about the after show. Now, every minute of every day you’re always thinking of what you can do creatively.
So different, isn’t it? The music [industry] now is so different. The capitalist side of the industry has died off to a degree. It’s still there but it’s much more in the commercial field but bands like myself who in the ‘80s and ‘90s you were still making CDs and still selling CDs. Now, you’ve got downloads…you’re more about almost giving the music to the public to get them to come out and support your shows. You’ll always have this live music scene because people always want to go out and see live music. That’s the saving grace right there that people want to come out and see shows. So, you have to give your music away in order to entice them out, then do so. And anyway you’re not going to stop people from sharing mp3s. That’s just how it is now. If you take it and run with it, it’s no problem.
JPG: Something that kind of connects the dots to what we’ve been talking about, your live stream performance at TRI Studios. Give me some background on that.
ST: Well, it’s Bob Weir’s place from the Grateful Dead. And he built this amazing studio where you can recreate any sonic ambience of any venue like Radio City Music Hall. You can type that up and get that ambience. It is extraordinary. When it’s all switched off it’s just a dead room. And then they switch the system on and all of a sudden it’s very much of a feeling. It’s hard to describe. It’s hard to put into words but it’s something you feel, you’re aware of.
And it was a real pleasure to go there. I had a bunch of songs that I knew I could put across well live. And having worked with Roger Daltrey for a few years doing Tommy and various hits tour while Pete wasn’t touring, I got along really well with Scott Devours, his drummer. He brought the bass player along and I brought a guitarist over to the States and we all met in San Francisco. We had a day’s rehearsal, and we did what we could. We did the best show that we could to put across the material. Scott and Dave Beste (bassist) did a really great job of this thing and figuring out what was necessary and what worked with the songs. I really enjoyed working with those guys. Tony [Lowe], the guitar player, we have in our band in the UK, so he’d already done countless shows over in England. And, of course, I’ve been working with him on my projects for years.
JPG: Did you know about TRI and you brought it up or did someone come to you and say, “When you’re in the San Francisco area….”?
ST: Yeah, we got invited. I was doing an in-store…this is the thing about getting out and playing, you meet people. I was doing an in-store at a clothes shop in London that Liam Gallagher owns called Pretty Green. I’ve been getting my clothes there for some time. I said to my manager, “If you can hook me up there. I love their clothes. That would be a great thing for me to do.” Then, I got offered an in-store to go and play. And it just went from there.
[TRI CEO/President] Chris McCutcheon and [Chief Creative Officer] Justin Kreutzmann, Justin who is related to Bill, obviously, were at the Pretty Green. They filmed it and said, “We would love for you to come to our studio if ever you’re in San Francisco.” I actually went out of my way. I said, “Let’s do it. Let’s get over there.” We set a date and put in things around it. It happened to be that I was doing a corporate show with Roger Daltrey in the Bahamas of all places. I put in a Joe’s Pub show in New York. So, I flew from the Bahamas to New York, stayed there a few days, did a show and then flew over to the West Coast. I made it happen.
I could have easily sat on the offer but the fact that those guys said that they wanted me there…I think at the time they offered to pay the flight if I paid the hotel. So, that’s what we did. We struck up a deal and we got on with it. It’s really been worthwhile because a lot of people have seen that. It came out beautifully.
JPG: It went over quite well. Now, were you playing to a room with just a few people because at one point you mocked the idea by pretending that you were in an arena?
ST: It was about 20 people; a few of the guys that worked there, friends and family and a handful of invited people.
JPG: Roger keeps being brought up. Working with Roger and with Pete do you end up becoming the mediator, the buffer, between those two?
ST: I used to be more so. In 2004 the Who recorded “Real Good Looking Boy” and “Old Red Wine.” It might have been 2002 because John [Entwhistle] died and “Old Red Wine” was written about him. I produced two tracks for the Who, putting that producer’s hat on. It was interesting. At the time it was more a case of telling Pete that Roger didn’t like this and then going back to Roger and telling him that Pete didn’t like that. Then, going back to Pete and saying “Roger loves this” and then going back to Roger and saying, “Pete loves that.” It was a bit more mediator. I almost at times felt like my positions were going to have to be final decisions because that was where they were at the time.
They’ve always been incredibly close. I think they’re closer now than they’ve ever been. I feel real love between them. I think Pete’s very respectful of my views and the fact that Roger has gone out of his way and worked very hard to get this Quadrophenia working on stage and you’ve got some great moments. On this particular show, since we started working with Roger a guy called Frank Simes came in as musical director. He’s done the same job with Quadrophenia. He works in the back room doing the enhancement parts on brass and stuff. He took over that role, which is nice for me. (slight laugh)
There was a time Pete and Roger weren’t quite so close. They were a bit disagreeing on things, and (slight laugh) they’d actually talk through me. I’d be standing there and Pete would look at me and say something to Roger and Roger would look at me and say something to Pete.
JPG: (laughs) I could see where both could get on your nerves because you’re stuck in the middle.
ST: Yeah, but that is not now. This is going back to 2004. After John died there was a period where it became very difficult because they lost another major part of their original lineup. These things are trying and it’s very hard to deal with emotionally. They both had a lot on their plate in that respect. Also, at that time there was a demand from the fans to do new material. Obviously, Pete has to write the material. It’s a tough one. I do believe there’s a little bit of that but right now it seems very different.
I feel like I’ve earned my stripes. I have a lot of respect from Pete and Roger respects me very highly. Roger relied on me for the last few years, being that right hand man to him, be there for his solo tours which has kept me in work and kept me active because without that the fact that I go out and do three or four or five months of touring work a year keeps me in a position where I can carry on funding my solo career and what I love to do. It’s not like I have to go out and get a day job or join a covers band or a tribute band. I’m lucky. I’m working and I’m in a position where if Pete doesn’t want to go out and tour I can go out and tour myself.
JPG: Speaking of your solo material, talking to you brings me back to my early college days when one of your albums, Sweet Sound, arrived when I was the Entertainment Editor for the college newspaper. By the way, I see different numbers for your solo releases. I’ve seen six listed but is it missing Sweet Sound and Moving Target, so is it actually eight?
ST: I think it’s about eight, yeah. I believe the count of seven is all stuff that I’ve done solo. Sorry, not solo, what the hell am I talking about, on my own label and such. Before that a major record company released only three on Polygram. My Stir music label has been around about ’94. Since then, I put seven studio albums out. Moving Target wasn’t received that well but, hey, we all make mistakes. There’s a couple of great songs on that CD as it goes.
It’s been a long road and I’m not proud of everything I’ve done. At the same time I’m not regretful of any of it and I’m really happy with where I’ve ended up.
JPG: Is Looking Out Looking In on your label as well?
ST: Yes, it was but then Eagle Rock came along and bought the rights to distribute it. It was put out in the UK in February. It’s now been put out in the States. I’ve got another album in the can. I’ve been writing and recording all year. So, I’m really excited about next year as well. It’s gonna be good. People who are catching on to me now have caught me on the crest of a wave right now.
JPG: Going back a bit, I was listening to the simontownshendis album, the song “Save Me From Me”…
ST: (slight laugh) Self-destruction.
JPG: Was it a poetic look or was it based in reality?
ST: It was basically about getting ahold of yourself, getting ahold of your drink and drug problems and finding yourself. That’s what that one’s about. It’s hard to exist sometimes, creative minds and people, even musicians. There’s a lot of downtime for musicians, a lot of waiting around, and you have to be strong. You have to wait for those moments where you get onstage a couple of hours every few days or whatever. You’re got to really come out and deliver. You’ve got to be patient in the interim. You’ve got work and you’ve got to sit down and have a play and try and be creative. It’s hard, sometimes, on the road. It’s hard when you get home in between tours to, sometimes, find that motivation but if you’ve got a goal and you want to reach it, it’s the only way, isn’t it? Those quieter moments start to find what it’s all about and what you’re all about, and then get out there and make the most of it. If all you do is sit around getting stoned and drunk and listening to what you’ve already done then you’re not creating anything new.
“Save Me From Me,” I was in a place in my life where I wasn’t doing myself any favors. I wasn’t letting myself progress because I was using too much of what was available to me and not being expressive. It’s definitely some problem with artists, that musicians have, is they sit and listen to what they’ve done. You write a song and then play it a hundred times. Really, you just want to write a song quickly, record it and then get on to something else.
JPG: There’s something else with creative people, where you could be so sensitive that you could write something but you question the work and run yourself down as you keep creating and reworking the material. Then, you end having a bad mindset because you’re looking for that perfect note, that perfect moment, that you feel is within you.
ST: Well, I certainly agree with that. If you can get the buzz out of creating something new, get that adrenaline rush out of creating something that before that moment in time never existed, that moment where you create something brand new, especially if it’s unique and it’s not been copied and you’ve not been influenced too much and you’ve come up with something completely different, those moments are powerful. No drug can make you feel as high. There’s nothing comparable. It’s a gift. It’s something you strive to experience as often as possible.
When writers say they have writer’s block, I think they’re saying that they’re not experiencing that emotional roller coaster of emotion that comes along with it. And it’s not all good, believe me. I don’t know, you may well have experienced it as well. People who haven’t, it’s not all great because when you come up with something that’s totally unique you go up on such a high that you’re going to have to come down at some point and then start searching again. Hearing something for the first time or creating something for the first time is always going to have a different effect than a year later, isn’t it, when you’ve heard it 50 times or whatever? It’s hard sometimes to take but that’s the game we’re in. That’s we do. It is what it is.
