Photo by Larry Hulst
Max Creek will commemorate its 40th anniversary with a three show run that opens tonight in Simsbury, Connecticut at the Old Well. From there the band heads to New York City for a Friday night performance at Sullivan Hall and then to Pawtucket, Rhode Island for a Saturday night gig at The Met. Looking ahead, on August 5-7 the group’s Camp Creek festival will return after a two year absence, moving from Mariaville, NY to Oxford, ME. In the following conversation Max Creek guitarist Scott Murawski discusses the ongoing evolution of the band’s music (including its decision to eschew a setlist these days) as well as the history of Camp Creek. This interview took place a couple days after Murawski returned from the Wanee Festival, where he not only performed his regular role in Mike Gordon’s group but he also appeared with the Allman Brothers Band during “Mountain Jam.” The following conversation explores these experiences as well as his partnership with Bill Kreutzmann and Oteil Burbridge in BK3.
You just appeared with the Allman Brothers Band at Wanee. Can you talk a little bit about how that came about and what the experience was like?
It was pretty intense. Every time I go to see the Allman Brothers, Oteil will ask me to sit in, which is very nice of him. The first two times I sat in, I sat in on “You Don’t Love Me,” and got a couple of solos. But this time they had me sit in on the last song of the night, “Mountain Jam,” which was really kind of stretchy. I got to lead a little bit of it for a while. So that was pretty intense, pretty crazy. I remember being a teenager and looking at the Live At Filmore East album cover and looking at the picture of those guys on the back…and then being up there and turning around, seeing Jaimoe and Butch and looking over and seeing Gregg Allman give me the eyeball, it was kind of freakish. I had to not get caught up in the intensity of it.
In terms of being thrown into “Mountain Jam,” does the band give you a sense of where they want you to go or how it’s all going to come together?
It’s interesting. It’s kind of a freeform thing, especially at first. They just kind of jam around without really any sort of beat or whatever and then they kind of break into the beat and the melody. And Derek and Warren, they do the classic “Mountain Jam” head of the thing and then it’s basically solo time where Derek takes one and leads the jam for a while. There was a sax player [Kebi Williams] and they gave it to him for a while and then they gave it to me for a while. It’s basically one chord. It’s all in the key of E, so you can just go off and do whatever. So it was interesting. I tried to start mellow and build it up to some sort of intensity level that I’m used to.
You’d played the festival before, right?
Yes, in fact Max Creek played the first Wanee festival (2005). And then I played another Wanee too, with BK4 (2009).
In terms of Creek playing there the first year, what are your memories of that experience?
I remember Oteil’s band played before us. And I thought that was kind of bizarre because his band was ridiculously good. And it was the first time I’d met Oteil. We talked very briefly for a few minutes and I think that might have been the first time I met Warren and talked to him for a few minutes as well and got to hang out backstage and watch the Allman Brothers for a while. It was the first time I’d been backstage watching the Allmans, so that was pretty cool. It was the first Wanee, so it wasn’t as well attended as it is now. It was still pretty good but not as jam-packed as it is now. Now it’s massive down there.
Segueing to your own Camp Creek, how would you compare the spirit or vibe with Wanee?
I would say there are similarities. You know there’s definitely an Allman Brothers family vibe going on at that festival similar to the Max Creek vibe. One interesting aspect about that venue is there are two stages. There’s the main stage, which is huge and opens into a huge field and then there’s what they call the mushroom stage, which is like the secondary stage. But I prefer the secondary stage, having played on both. The secondary stage is on the other end of the field and then you go into the woods a little bit. It’s kind of a natural amphitheater in the woods on a natural slope that they’ve cleared out. They put seating in to some extent but they left the trees. And the trees have all that lichen hanging down, so it’s a very cool vibe. Comparing it to Camp Creek I would say the family vibe is similar as far as that goes. The Allman Brothers are very generous as far as letting people sit in and stuff, so there is a lot of mix it up type stuff between the musicians where everybody sits in with everybody else. Very cool.
When I think of Camp Creek, or even just Max Creek and your community of fans, the word that comes to mind is family. While I think that term is overused, I really think it applies here. Looking back, to your mind, how do you account for this?
I’m not sure, except that the philosophy of the band really is tolerance. Way back in the 70s when we first started out, we came up with this kind of mission statement before mission statements were really popular. We came up with the mission statement as Max Creek being this place where you can come create in any way shape or form that you want to and not be judged for it. And that extended to the audience too.
So that’s kind of been the philosophy the whole time and I think people feel that from us. It certainly is that way within the band, where whatever I want to do, whatever song I want to bring in, however I want to play a song on a particular given night, there’s pretty much no argument there. And that’s true for anybody else. Anybody brings anything in and everybody’s very open to creativity. And I think that vibe of acceptance and tolerance kind of extends to the audience, where obviously we get some pretty freakish people that come and see us play but they can come there and they’re pretty much accepted. And I think that’s what’s kind of established the whole family thing in the first place. Just come and create. You have a home here. If you want to be creative, there’s a home for you here.
I also think the Max Creek bulletin board on your homepage was an antecedent to a lot of things that happened on the web.
Yeah I agree with that. The nature of the bulletin board was that there were no categories and no threads, it was all just one message after another in order as they came through the door. People had talked about wanting to do threaded message boards and I fought tooth and nail against that because of the sense of community that the message board seemed to offer, more so than a threaded board where you can pick and choose the discussion. With the Creek board being one dimensional, you were just thrown in and that’s what you saw. And people were on there every day. They would go to work, log into the message board and say, “Good morning.” Even before Facebook and MySpace, there was some sort of social network that was going on there that established this community spirit.
In terms of the band’s music, if someone were seeing Max Creek today, as opposed to 10 or 20 years ago, how appreciably different would that experience be?
I think one of the aspects of the band that keeps things interesting for me is the evolution of things. Some of the best songs, some of my favorite things that we do, didn’t start out that way. But as the band’s played them over the years, they’ve evolved.
For example “Emerald Eyes” is song of mine that has this thing at the end that sounds composed but really isn’t. We just spontaneously added a part to it at the end of one night of playing the song and the next time we played it, one of us remembered that we did that and so we repeated it and maybe made it a little bit longer. Then the next time maybe something else was added. And these things develop into these monstrous creations that have just evolved over time.
It’s interesting because in a lot of cases you bring in a song and the energy of playing that song for the first time creates something that you can never get back again. That first time you’re playing a song you’re a little bit nervous and everybody’s a little bit nervous and really concentrating on getting the song together and it has this kind of energy that you can never get back. The second time you play it you’ve already got it once under your belt and it never goes back to that original energy. However, a year later after you’ve played the song 50 times, you can look at the difference between the first one, which might have this intense energy to it, and a year later where it’s developed and everybody’s added their parts.
It’s funny because even recently when we played up in Rochester in February, the guys [in Creek] rode all the way up and they were listening to a tape of us from ’83. So when they came into the dressing room they were all hopped up. They were like, “Oh my God, we listened to this version of”—I can’t remember what song it was, but, I think it was one of John’s, I think it was “Gypsy Blue”—“we listened to this version of this song and it did this and it did that.” And since then the song has migrated and changed, so it was cool because they had listened to it on the way up and then when we played it in Rochester everyone was like, “Let’s try it in the old arrangement, the way we used to do it in ’83.”
I always find it interesting to go back and listen to the older stuff and listen to where things were then and listen to where things are now and listen to how people’s perspective on things have changed, how their playing has changed. It’s a very cool thing. And some of this material is 20, 30, 40 years old and so after playing it that long, you could be bored out of your mind. But the way the songs are, they evolve, they’re constantly changing. And that right there keeps it interesting for us and in turn keeps it interesting for the fans that keep coming back and listening to the same songs over and over again. Even the same songs two nights in a row are not going to be the same and in 10 years it’s going to evolve and change and grow. It’s a very cool thing.
In terms of selecting those songs from night to night, what is the process like of making a setlist? Do you guys generally use one?
We used to work from a setlist, but now we don’t. I refuse to anymore. There are a couple of reasons why I refuse. I always thought that it’s very hard to tell beforehand what the energy of the moment is going to be like in the middle of a set. And there’s obviously guidelines that we have, like what’s good to start a set with, what’s good to end the set and what’s good in the middle of a set. We have these kind of guidelines but even those we try to break out of, we’ll say, “Let’s do the set backwards. Let’s start with something that we normally end the night with and things like that.”
But if you’re jamming two songs together and you know what the second song is going to be beforehand then it’s going to shape that jam in a certain way. And my personal preference is not have those preconceived shapes for the jams. I like the jams to go where they go and end up where they end up without having any sort of focus. That has its downside too as Mark [Mercier] is more than willing to point out. He hates directionless jamming. But I’ll say, “Well no, it’s not really directionless jamming as long as you’re creating melodies” but for me, yeah, I’d rather not have a setlist because I’d rather be able to have a jam go where it wants to go without having some sort of focus on it and in the middle of a set I would rather be able to feel the energy of the room, the energy of the crowd, the energy that’s left behind in the song we just played and pick a song that’s right there that fits the mode, the mood of thing, rather than have something preconceived to go on. I think I’m in the minority as far as that goes (laughs).
Well it sounds like your will has prevailed, at least in 2011.
I think nobody else wants to throw a setlist together, so they just let me have my way.
It’s funny too because when I was in the BK3 I was doing setlists every night. I was like, “We’ve got to have a setlist.” It was a whole different thing though because we had a very limited repertoire. You know Creek’s got hundreds and hundreds of tunes and BK3 I think we had maybe 40 tunes total and we were doing six nights in a row and we were trying not to repeat things. So I was a big proponent of setlists at first in BK3, and then after a while it was like, “Okay, let’s forget the setlist and let’s just see where things go.” I mean even in that project it came back, and I still prefer the open-ended, let’s see where it goes, kind of thing. To me it’s more of open ended creativity thing, to fly without a net.
In Mike’s band how does that play out?
Mike does a setlist every night. He and I kind of collaborate on it. He usually comes up with rough drafts and then we usually go to a café beforehand and talk about the setlist. He’ll show it to me and we’ll talk about it and talk about ideas and stuff like that. And then the other people in the band when they see it, they can make changes and adjustments or whatever. But yeah, with Mike’s band we try to use a setlist every night. He’s not opposed to the idea of not using a setlist because I’ve mentioned it to him before but Mike’s a very cerebral kind of guy. The beauty of that is he likes to be prepared, so he’ll generate a setlist for the show but more often than not we stray away from the setlist. He’ll come over to me in the middle of the set and say, “You know, this next song doesn’t feel right here, what if we do this instead” or “What should we do instead?” So even though he’s a big proponent of a setlist, if I go over to him in the middle of the set and say, “You know let’s do this,” he’s all for it. He’s gung ho.
The differences between Mike’s band and Creek, I find them interesting. Just the approaches to things are different, the approaches to jamming are different. I think I play differently from one band to the next…well obviously because of everything that’s going around me musically, but also the expectations as far as my role in the band and stuff. There’s tons of similarities but I find the differences very interesting.
How would you characterize those differences? Is it something you can you articulate?
It’s interesting because it’s a completely different set of musicians even though it’s very similar instrumentation. The keyboard player in Mike’s band is Tom Cleary. He’s teaches jazz at UVM and he’s a very jazz-oriented player. Whereas Mark, he’s like a ragtime piano type of guy. So stylistically, those two guys are playing the instrument that’s in my range and providing the most accompaniment but their styles are different enough that in order for me to feel like I’m fitting in, I have to play slightly differently.
And playing off of Mike is different because he’s such a melodic bass player. [Max Creek’s] John Rider is a melodic bass player too but stylistically he’s different. Mike is so technically proficient and he can hear everything I’m doing and play off everything that I’m doing. With John there’s a conversation that’s going back and forth where we’re speaking two different dialects that blend really well together. Whereas Mike and I are often playing similar dialects.
I play differently with everybody I play with in a jam situation because the most important thing is listening to and playing off the people you’re with and it brings out different things. Mike being from the Phish world has a tendency to bring this geometric element. To a lot of people it sounds discordant but it’s actually mathematical patterns of music and I love that stuff, so I jump right on it. Whereas Creek doesn’t get into that kind of thing as much, so it’s a cool thing to be able to play with all these different musicians and play off of their different styles.
After I play with Mike for a month and then come back with Creek, I’ve learned, absorbed and added to my vocabulary and I bring that vocabulary back into Creek. And vice versa, everything I do with Creek I bring back to Mike’s band and the same thing is true for BK3. Everybody I play with I learn from and I bring it to all the other projects. It’s like this cyclical thing.
Do you think there’s any chance that BK3 will return at some point?
You know, I talk about it with both Bill and Oteil every time we see each other. I think both Bill and Oteil are open to the idea, I just know Bill is really busy doing his 7 Walkers thing and Oteil is very busy doing his stuff but I know that the three of us loved the experience of playing together, and to me, there’s no replacement for those three. You know when we went out with Hutch [James Hutchinson] after that, it was a cool thing but it wasn’t BK3. It was definitely a different experience, the BK4 thing with Hutch and Tara Nevins. It was cool, but there was something about me and Bill and Oteil that when we got into that practice room the first time and really met each other formally for the first time, we just picked up our instruments, started making noises together and 45 minutes later we were still jamming and when it came to a halt, we were like, “Holy shit what was that?” I talked about this with Oteil over the weekend, we were reminiscing about it. It was just unbelievable and every time we get together since that first jam, it’s been the same experience. There’s a very cool chemistry going on there. So I know that I want to, I know that Oteil wants to, I know that Bill wants to, it’s just a matter of getting everybody’s schedules together and figuring out the best way to do it.
One more question about spontaneous performance. Can you talk about your experience at The Mossery event [in which fans were able to perform with Mike Gordon, Murawski and either Joe Russo or Todd Isler]?
It was a blast I’ll tell ya. I ended up finally just drinking beers and playing rhythm guitar all night long because, all the other guitar players were playing leads up there.
It was really cool. The whole thing was that we were playing rhythm tracks from Mike’s Moss album and he’s not a simplistic songwriter. He’ll write songs in strange time signatures and strange keys and we had these kids up there that have been playing guitar for two years and all of a sudden we’re doing something in 7/4 and A flat and these poor kids they have no idea. So I spent the night mostly just guiding people along: “You know, if you just play blues and C sharp you’ll be fine.”
But people were so excited to get on the stage with Mike and be able to play off of him, and off of me, and off of Joe Russo for the first set and Todd for the second set. So many people came up to me and said, “That was the best experience I ever had in my life, being able to do that.” I mean it’s a very cool thing. You don’t see big name artists do that where it’s like, “Yeah come on and jam with the Allman Brothers.” And people still talk about it, “I don’t know if you remember me but I played at The Mossery and I’ve got to say that was the coolest experience I’ve ever had in my life.”
It was a very cool thing and it was hilarious for me. A guitar player would come up and play a solo for a few bars and then take off and then another guitar player would come up in a different style and ability level. It gave people a great experience and promoted the new album. I mean it was just a really cool event.
Moving on to Camp Creek, the festival will return this year and move to Oxford, Maine. Will that be on the Nateva site?
Yes, it’s the place that Nateva was. It’s in exactly the same place that Nateva was supposed to be this year and it’s the same weekend that Nateva was supposed to be this year, so we’ve kind of taken over that slot.
Is that how it all came together in terms of why you guys are in Maine this year for Camp Creek?
Well, you know, the second, third and fourth Camp Creeks were all in Maine so it’s kind of a homecoming for us. We’d been at ILCC [Indian Lookout Country Club] I think for 13 years or something like that. And it was a great site and I have nothing but good things to say about it but the original Camp Creeks moved all over the place. The first one was in Connecticut. The next three were in Maine. And then there were a few years off. And then we played one in Rhode Island and we played one in Connecticut.
It was kind of like a carnival act to some extent for a while until we found ILCC and we stayed there for a while and then a few years ago, the recession hit and we kind of looked at the economy and looked at how much money people actually had to spend on entertainment and we looked up the number of festivals that were out there and we said, “You know what, this is a losing proposition if we do this right now. I think people’s entertainment dollars are stretched too far and they’re going to have to make choices and I don’t think that we would benefit by doing it.” So we decided to take a couple years off with the full intent of riding out the recession and coming back. We’d been bandying about whether to go back to ILCC or whether to find a new location. Then Nateva came along and the guy that runs Nateva, he’s really psyched to have Camp Creek up there. So with his enthusiasm and coming back to Maine, it seemed like a good decision. We realize that all the people in upstate New York that are used to coming to ILCC are going to have to travel the extra distance and that kind of sucks. That’s the downside to the thing but I really think the site is gorgeous and it’s going to be a great weekend to have it. I think we’re going to come back on full thrusters. I think it’s going to be great.
If you were to think back over past Camp Creeks, what particular moment or moments jump out at you?
Oh man, it’s just such a tough question. There’s so many good moments. I think the first year we were there at ILCC Mike came in and sat in and played with us and that was very cool. David Crosby came and played one Camp Creek and that was really cool to have him there.
What are your memories of the very first Camp Creek?
The very first Camp Creek was in Granby, Connecticut in 1982 and it was in somebody’s back yard and I don’t have too many memories of it. I remember that everybody was pretty buzzed on stage and off for a lot of the show. And some pretty crazy jamming went on, I do remember that. If you want to go back, I remember at the second Camp Creek up in Maine we played inside this huge barn. Everybody camped out in the fields but the music actually went on inside this huge barn. I remember playing and there was a guy that was walking the rafters. He was probably, I would say 50 feet in the air with nothing to hang on to or anything. And while we were playing he was like tightrope-walking the rafters. It kind of freaked me out.
Final question: what are you looking forward to this year?
I’m looking forward to some of the stuff that was going to be at Nateva that’s going to be at Camp. We’re going to reap the benefits of Nateva being cancelled by having a lot of the special stuff that was planned for Nateva being moved over into Camp Creek. I don’t know what a lot of it is. I know they had hired carnival rides and stuff like that.
I’m also looking forward to one of the coolest aspects of Camp Creek, which is we have a lot of local bands that are friends of ours and they’re all going to be there. There’s going to be a stage, I think they’re calling it the Family Stage, which is going to have all our friends. So I’m kind of looking forward to that. I get asked to sit with all these different musicians, really good musicians too, and I love that kind of experience. Not that everyone necessarily wants to see my face on every stage but I think people like to see bands mix it up. That makes it different than going to a club and seeing the same musicians all night long. And that also adds to the family vibe of the whole thing.
