“The rhythm section’s revenge” was the term Jim O’Rourke came up with a few years ago to describe the experimental music duo On Fillmore, featuring bassist Darin Gray and percussionist Glenn Kotche. O’Rourke gets to call them whatever he wants (after all, he’s the musical matchmaker that brought the pair together in the first place), but the places they’ve taken their music over the last decade goes beyond any average definition of the phrase “rhythm section.” Though their individual schedules limit the opportunities for face-to-face playing time these days – Gray has numerous projects going on at any given time, while Kotche’s “day job” with Wilco is pretty all-encompassing by itself – they make it clear that their music is a result of their friendship … and the friendship’s going to be there for a long time to come.
We were able to catch the duo and suspend time as we know it long enough to have some fun talking about their new album Extended Vacation, and the world of On Fillmore – one that includes scuttling crabs, old shortwave radios, bird calls, 200-ton dragons, and nice sunrises.
Ladies and gentlemen, meet Darin Gray and Glenn Kotche – On Fillmore.
BR: No better place to start than at the beginning – is it true that Jim O’Rouke’s responsible for the two of you getting together?
DG: That’s right; we first met in a studio in Chicago. We were making Jim’s Eureka album, which would’ve been … 1997, I believe. That record took a couple of years to make; by the time it came out in ‘99, Glenn and I had been friends for a while. But yeah, you can blame it on Jim. (laughs)
GK: I had actually seen Darin play live with Jim before he brought us together for the Eureka sessions.
BR: So he recruited the two of you separately – with a feeling that you’d make a good team together?
DG: Yes, he did. Jim has done that kind of thing before with people; he has a really great knack for hearing something in one person’s playing and knowing that it’s going to work well with someone else’s playing. And that’s what happened with Glenn and I – it was pretty instant. Really, within an hour of meeting, we were recording.
I think the older you get, the more you appreciate those experiences you have that are, for whatever reason, special. It’s mysterious … when you just automatically start really playing and interacting with somebody, you know? If you could figure out how and why it happens, you’d probably be doing it with a lot more people.
BR: But then it wouldn’t be as special, either.
DG: That’s absolutely true – and this was. We immediately just started making music together and we’ve been best friends ever since.
BR: That’s so cool to hear. I like to think that I’m not cynical, but this old world and the music business can get pretty bloodthirsty and soulless at times –
DG: Oh, absolutely.
BR: – and I love hearing examples of talented people getting together and simply saying, “Hey, I like making music with you.”
GK: Right from the first time I heard Darin playing live with Jim, he was playing in such a way that I was really getting interested – experimenting a lot. I could tell he had a really sound foundation in a lot of different styles. I was really a newbie to the whole scene at that point. You have to remember that prior to Wilco, I’d been playing and touring with singer-songwriters; rock, folk, jazz, stuff like that … but I hadn’t done a whole lot of experimental music. Darin’s like a musical encyclopedia – being around him and playing music together was like going to school. We’d be talking about music and I’d end up getting turned on to great records that really impacted me in a profound way. I realized I had a lot to learn from this guy and really enjoyed playing with him. We both wanted to keep it going at that point.
BR: And where did the idea for the duo come from?
DG: Jim had a band for a couple of years that was made up of me and Glenn, Tim Barnes, sometimes Rob Mazurek from the Chicago Underground … but the core group was Jim, Tim, Glenn and I. We did a few shows and a few tours. We’d played the Meltdown Festival in London and Glenn and I headed back early afterwards to be with our families. That turned into one of those nightmare plane experiences …
GK: Right – the “Flight from Hell.” It was horrible. (laughter) It started out with me pointing out the window and shouting that there was jet fuel spilling out of the airplane onto the tarmac …
DG: So we couldn’t leave on schedule, and that means you can’t get to where you need to be on time, so you miss your connecting flight and you end up laying over an extra night in Miami … it just goes on and on and on. Anybody who travels to any extent has stories like that. Anyway, during those two days of trying to get home, we decided that we should start playing together more as a duo.
BR: Spawned from the Flight from Hell. (laughter)
DG: We live about five hours apart. Glenn wasn’t in Wilco at that time, so we’d take turns driving to each other’s places to practice.
BR: You both had more time available at that point.
DG: Oh, sure – we’d get together at least a couple times a month for about a year there … we really did a lot of work in that period.
BR: And was it intended to be a duo right from the beginning?
DG: Yes – always intended to be a duo. There was a moniker from the beginning that stuck: On Fillmore was “the rhythm section’s revenge.” That’s really what we wanted it to be; just the two of us, exploring our friendship: how it grows, how it changes, likes, and dislikes. But yeah, I think right from day one, the two of us felt: “This isn’t going to just be a band – we’re going to do this forever as our friendship grows.” We each made that kind of commitment right from the start.
BR: You mean – you didn’t do it just to get an album and some cool merchandise out there? (laughter)
DG: Right. (laughs) No – not at all. In fact, for that first year, we were just into making music together … we weren’t really thinking about records per se. We were just having a great time getting together and seeing each other.
BR: That’s cool; so the music has really evolved with the friendship.
DG: Absolutely.
BR: So then I guess the next question is, how has the music evolved?
DG: I think the early stuff we recorded was basically just us playing music together: Glenn with a drum kit – or something like one (laughs) – and myself on upright bass, just sort of facing each other and playing.
GK: We just got together in Darin’s basement and improvised – that’s what became the Wooden Box Set record [limited edition 2001 release]. Things have evolved from there over time into what they are today: I started writing on vibraphone while Darin began doing more writing on nylon string guitar and keyboards. We began to realize that we could make real beautiful, real scary-ass music. (laughter) The scary-ass part is always unintentional, though.
BR: The music is what anyone wants to see. Here’s my advice: don’t ever make a video!
GK: No, I hear you. That’s one of the things I like, whether it’s working with Wilco, or playing music with Darin – seeing songs. One of the things I rarely do is ask what the lyrics mean on a song, because I want them to mean something to me. Even though I’m in a band with Jeff [Tweedy] all the time, I want his lyrics to mean something to me … and if I know the literal meaning of them, then that takes away from the relationship I have with the song.
There are a lot of unusual sounds on the On Fillmore album and to put them in context takes away from the personal connection that the listener can have with them.
BR: Well, there were some specific things that to me sounded like this or sounded like that – but I’m not going to ask you about every one of them because that would be like cornering the magician and demanding to know how the rabbit got in the hat, you know? (laughter)
GK: Right, right! We’re not going to do the Penn and Teller thing and let you in on how everything’s done. (laughter)
DG: We don’t want you to know. (laughs) We don’t want anyone to know.
BR: That’s good; don’t blow it for my sake. At any point, if I’m poking too hard, just say “unh-uh”, okay?
DG: That’s cool. (laughter)
BR: And, at the same time, I’ll share some of the visions I got from listening to the album as we go along, if you’d like.
GK: Oh, absolutely – yeah.
DG: You know, it’s actually cool to hear you say that, because for me … there’s honestly not enough mystery any more. I really think that’s something we’re trying to put in the music so that the listener can have whatever image they want. To me, these things we’re creating musically are places – they’re places you can visit. It’s a tall order these days to have somebody sit down for a 45-minute album – we know that. I mean, for me, if it’s an album I want to listen to, I’ll make time to listen to it from beginning to end.
BR: Oh, man – don’t get me going. I still think of releases as records, you know?
DG: Oh, absolutely.
BR: And I love liner notes and cover art; I’m still naïve enough to think that it matters to each and every artist, rather than being dictated by a PR person somewhere.
DG: Right, right!
BR: And I like the idea that this song was meant to be first … and this song had to end the album, you know.
DG: Well, that’s what we hope people think about listening to Extended Vacation – it’s really meant to be an album, with a definite order of things … a route.
BR: How did you approach the writing for this album? Were there demos that each of you came up with?
GK: Well it was sort of the exact opposite of our last album, Sleeps with Fishes [2004], where I came up with the vibe parts and Darin had all these great bass lines and overdub ideas and sound designs … he really put the songs out into the atmosphere. This time was kind of the opposite where Darin wrote most of the melodies – a lot of the stuff that I’m playing on vibes – and then I’d come up with these counter-melodies and overdub parts and harmonic ideas to go along with that. Since I get to travel so much with Wilco, I make field recordings all over the world. I brought in a lot of those – what I refer to as “extra-musical sounds.”
DG: We’d begin pretty much as anyone would – with a basic chord structure. “I like the way this part goes, and so do you …” (laughs) So there’s that part of it, the nuts and bolts part of it. We don’t have the advantage of band practice, so we’d go ahead and record the basic song and then listen to it, asking ourselves “What are we hearing; what does it need – if anything – from there?” It’s not a matter of throwing in the kitchen sink; it’s a matter of listening to the music and reacting. And sometimes it’s a matter of finding the right sound – we might reject ten before we find the one that hits us – and, hopefully, the listener – on a higher level.
BR: So the actual recording of Extended Vacation took …
DG: Three years – a full three years to do about … two weeks of recording. (laughter) It’s been tough to find time to get together, but, at the same time, we talk a lot on the phone and e-mail; send music files and ideas to each other; so by the time we get to the studio we kind of have an idea of what we’re going to do. Or, let’s say we have a pretty good idea of what we’re not going to do.
BR: And again, it’s built around the friendship the two of you have …
DG: It is … it takes a lot of trust, you know. When you’re putting together some of these songs, they’re pretty involved, but our goal is to make it sound as if there’s not a lot going on. There’s times where there’s like, 90 tracks on this album, but we don’t want it to sound like there’s 90 tracks, so that would be the sort of dilemma we’d be trying to solve.
GK: We’d get together on the sound effects; we wanted to do them live in the studio rather than just use samples that had been created electronically. We wanted to create them acoustically ourselves.
DG: We want it to sound organic.
BR: Oh yeah – it shows. This is not an electronica record –
GK: It’s really pretty acoustic.
BR: And it takes you through a full cycle: sunrise to sunrise … it’s really earthy.
GK: Excellent – thanks; it’s great to hear that.
DG: Even in a live setting, we’d rather have the audience watch us try to battle our way through it and make it all happen, rather than have a bunch of pre-recorded stuff that you just hit a button and there it is.
BR: Me, I’d rather watch the guy juggling the flaming, roaring chainsaws –
DG: Yeah! I like that! (laughs) And then the audience is in on the struggle, wondering “How’s he gonna do this?” For us, I think it’ll mean arranging some of this stuff differently for the live setting, but I believe it’ll be entertaining for the audience.
BR: I wanted to ask you about Dede Sampaio, who is credited for “bird calls” on Extended Vacation. When you look into Dede’s background, you find out he’s this total rhythm master. How did you hook up with him – and end up having him do bird calls?
DG: It’s funny, you know, because you’re right – that’s not really what he does. Dede is a master Brazilian percussionist who’s played with heavies all over the world. Here’s a man who has played percussion with Miles Davis … and we asked him to come in to do bird calls. (laughter) But I think he really enjoyed doing it.
GK: I’ve actually known Dede for years. He was friends with some teachers that I had back in high school and when I was in college, he would sit in with our percussion ensembles. Right around that same time was when these really high-end handmade wooden bird whistles were starting to be imported from Brazil – I remember my professor bought a set of them from Dede. They weren’t just something you blew into, though – you actually had to know how to play them. They were a little instrument by themselves.
DG: There’s a percussion shop in Chicago – Andy’s Music – that Glenn and I always try to go to whenever I’m up there. They have tons of world percussion. It’s pretty much a drum geek sort of thing to do, but it’s always fun … more for me, no doubt, than Glenn because he probably owns most if it already. (laughter) So we’re in Andy’s and they had these beautiful hand-made bird calls – just gorgeous. And when they told us that this guy named Dede Sampaio makes them, Glenn said, “Hey! I remember him from when I was in_ high school_.” And I was like, “Really? Man, if there’s a guy who makes these, that’s somebody we should know.” (laughs)
GK: The sounds of his bird calls were just what we wanted. They’re beautiful, but at the same time they’re just a little different, as well. I just got ahold of him out of the blue; I didn’t even know if he’d remember me, but he did.
DG: And it was a really big thing for both of us to have him come in and play – not just because of who he is as a musician, but as someone outside of the duo. I mean, between the two of us, we know so, so many great musicians who could have come in, but we’ve always wanted to keep it a duo. So we talked about it a lot before we had Dede come in to do the bird calls … now I’m so glad we did.
BR: The first time through the album, I thought they actually were field recordings.
GK: It’s a good combination: some of them sound real; some of them sound a little … different (laughs) and that’s good. But it was like doing a jazz session and having a trumpet player come in and do a pass – take a solo, you know? He was actually playing music on the bird whistles – not just making sounds.
DG: At the same time, we didn’t want him to simply play something in reaction to what we were doing. We really just wanted him to come in and play. By the way, I won’t go on record saying that there’s not field recordings on there … there might be a mix of things. (laughs)
BR: That’s cool. I want people to be interested enough to go out and hear this for themselves, but … you know … the rabbit … the hat. (laughter)
DG: We want to keep some mystery going! (laughter)
BR: Here’s one more question before we get into specific cuts on the album – and this is really my own ignorance showing. I guess I’ve always thought of the vibes as a melodic instrument, rather than a percussive instrument, but that’s not entirely true, is it? I mean, when I think about it, the way I play guitar is definitely more percussive than melodic at times. (laughter)
GK: Well, I’m definitely playing pitches, melodies, and harmonies on the vibes. It’s the sonic textures that are so other-worldly, you know, with the oscillations of the sound waves that create layers of rhythms on their own … so I guess I think of the vibes as a percussion instrument. I’ve always been drawn to a lot of metallic percussion for that exact reason: we’ve used a lot of crotales – those tuned metal percussion discs that are really ear piercing. And because their overtones are so ear piercing and so intense, they create their own patterns and rhythms against each other. We’re both drawn to that kind of thing because you get these extra rhythms, this extra musical/psycho-acoustic/rhythmic shit happening (laughs), which is just great.
BR: Anyone in particular who’s been an inspiration on the vibes for you?
GK: No – not really. I mean there are some really amazing vibe players out there, but they’re mostly in jazz settings, playing like a pianist would play. I guess my style is derived from my limitations on the instrument. (laughs) I can only play very simple melodies – it’s the only melodic instrument I have … and my style comes from having limited resources.
BR: Yeah, well … you do all right. (laughter)
GK: Well, thank you. I think sometimes limitations yield the greatest creativity. (laughter)
BR: First cut on the album is “Checking In”, where we just sort of drift along gently until there’s this big disturbance … and we touch down in the jungle. That’s our first introduction to Dede and the bird calls.
GK: We just knew it would work out well to have him join us for this. The beginning of that cut sounds like other On Fillmore songs; it’s a nice segue into the new stuff. It starts out sounding familiar, but when the birds come in, all of a sudden you say “Okay – this is somewhere else … this is not right …” (laughter)
BR: “Master Moon” has this slow-building tension that never gets resolved. It’s not a creepy song, necessarily, but by the time you get to the end, you realize you’ve been holding your breath … there’s a leetle edge there.
GK: I know that’s the song that a lot of people have commented on so far, saying it’s the most accessible song on the record or whatever, but that’s not even my favorite song to listen to. For me, I’m not even that much of a fan of that tune … but I think it does a good job of capturing an uncomfortable feeling. It’s one of those things when you’re traveling and you’re in a new place … you haven’t quite gotten your grounding; you’re not quite sure of things and you’re trying to figure it out. There’s that little feeling of anxiety hanging over your head and you’re trying to figure out “Where am I?” and your senses can’t quite relax. I think that song captures those feelings well and that’s kind of cool.
BR: Like my mother used to say: “That gives me the willies.”
GK: (laughs) Right – that’s it. Good for your mom!
BR: Here’s a picture I’ll throw at you: the first time I listened to “Daydreaming So Early”, it brought back a strong memory from my childhood. Here on the Maine coast, when I was a kid, just about every fishing family had one of those old Hallicrafters shortwave radios on the kitchen table, okay? That’s how you stayed in contact with the boats and knew everyone was safe. They were powerful things, with dial tuning, rather than crystals, so you either had to be right on or you’d get these weird off-frequency bends to things … plus all kinds of weird transmissions from all over the world. (laughter) So the first time I’m listening to “Daydreaming So Early”, there’s a point about halfway through that sounds like the vibes are being played over an old Hallicrafters short wave …
DG: I love that; cool image. Let’s just say they were. (laughter)
GK: Yeah; that’s great. The truth is, that’s just the way the vibes came through the microphone. We didn’t write it that way, but it’s like it was waiting when we got to that point.
DG: We weren’t consciously trying to make it sound like a transmission from outer space or anything. But I think it’s cool for people – like you did – to draw their own images from it.
GK: We’re trying to create a place … trying to communicate from a little weird or different place and it’s broken, you know? Listening to the playback, it seemed like it had the right sound, the fragility that we were looking for – just before all the drums come in.
BR: Oh, man – that big wall of military-sounding drums at the end: how many tracks did that represent?
GK: (laughs) I want you to write that there are 70 tracks of me playing drums. (laughter) I’d love to take credit for that! Actually, yeah, there are field recordings involved, but I am playing over top of it all.
That’s something that both Darin and I love doing: we try to avoid store-bought sounds … something that you just walk into the music store and buy. A lot of times we’ll use homemade or prepared instruments or extended techniques where you play instruments not necessarily in the way that they’re intended to be played, combining different sounds to create a new sound … like with the marching drums. I’m playing along with drums that I’d recorded elsewhere and it creates this new kind of this weird drum that doesn’t really exist.
BR: Or a snore …
DG: A snore?
BR: Yeah – isn’t that someone snoring at the end of the track?
DG: Ummm … I can’t say. (laughter) Good ears. (more laughter)
GK: See, that again, that’s a key aspect of On Fillmore – taking a common sound to a new place … that’s the sort of thing that we do. As people, we don’t have the option of closing out sound, you know? We can close our eyelids and shut things out, but with our ears, we can’t easily shut things out; we’re always hearing. There are all these incredible sounds all around us that we hear every day and kind of take for granted. But when you take those individual sounds and put them in an entirely different context, in a different light – you can get a completely different reaction to them.
BR: Oh, absolutely.
GK: So in the case of that particular sound, when I hear it, I still can’t decide if I’m afraid of it or it‘s something endearing. Is it the sound of something gentle, or is it a 200-ton dragon around the corner? A snore is generally a sound that I would take for granted – especially living on a bus with six guys. (laughter) But I think that’s basically our formula for creating new places – taking these sounds and placing them out of context. I guess ultimately – and this may be a bit idealistic because we’re really just making music that we enjoy – but ultimately it would be great if it got the listener to pay attention to the things that we all take for granted … just listened a little more. But I think that may be a little lofty goal.
BR: “Complications” is an interesting title for the next cut; to me it feels like one of the least layered, least complicated songs on the album.
DG: You know, the song titles almost always come after the songs. In fact, it would be interesting to have titles going in and see how it affected the process, you know? For me, that’s the point in the album – in the journey – where you need to take a breath, because things have gotten complicated.
BR: It’s an impressive ending … it’s like being in a cathedral with that orchestral swirl all around you and then – wham – the door slams shut.
GK: You’ve got some good ears, man. (laughter)
BR: “Off the Beaten Path” feels like the bass is holding down a foundation – a safe place to come back to, while the rest of the music ventures off.
DG: I think that’s my job in general as bassist in this band; and it’s funny, because that’s not what I tend to do in the other settings that I play music in. I don’t think anyone would ever say, “Oh, that Darin – he can really hold down the fort.” I’m not that kind of a guy. (laughs)
GK: The truth is, Darin’s so good at both styles – and I’m glad he gets to show both of them on this record. You know, he always plays his old upright in On Fillmore, but in the other band settings he plays electric and a lot of times, his bass part is almost like a second lead vocal. In On Fillmore, sometimes he gets to be the foundation; other times he’s a wild card.
DG: Usually, the music has so many different themes going on all on its own that I don’t want someone to be distracted by, say, the bass line. I really don’t even want them to think about that apart from the piece itself.
BR: Yeah, but now I’m going to blow that theory out of the water – (laughter)
DG: Cool!
BR: Because on “Extended Vacation”, my visual for the first minute or so is the old classic 2 AM at the jazz club: bass player with his eyes closed; Chesterfield smoke so thick hanging in the stage lights; hangers-on just nodding to that groove he’s laying down …
GK: Right, right – and then at the end, you realize that there’s this little revolution going on in Southeast Asia or something like that! (laughter)
BR: Exactly – and that weird shit that sounds like crabs scuttling sideways …
GK: (laughs) Oh, that’s great – oh man. Yeah, those are just little no-thinkers – all acoustic. “Sounds like crabs scuttling” – I can totally see that.
BR: Yeah, well, don’t tell me anything different – that’s what I want to have in my head. (laughter) Along with the two of you standing just a few feet apart, making all this music happen: gut reaction to gut reaction to gut reaction. Again, for a project that was spread out over a long period of time, it feels emotional and immediate.
DG: I’m happy to hear that – I’m glad it comes across that way.
GK: But that’s the way a lot of it happened, actually … we don’t put a lot of stock in trying to play things perfectly or accurately. Sometimes sloppiness is all a part of the expression of it all. Just like we don’t intentionally set out to make creepy or spine-stirring music; it’s all about creating a place … or like a movie where sometimes you’re at the edge of your seat and other times you’re relaxed. It’s a rollercoaster and you need to do that to create the place. We’re not intentionally trying to screw with the listener; we’re not trying to challenge the listener. What we’re saying is this is us, come with us, check this out … but you better put your seatbelt on. (laughter)
BR: “Clearing Out” had to be the last track, as far I’m concerned. You have all the industrial sounds and this minor mode that is the underpinnings of the song – and then, right at the very last moment, everything resolves itself with this big major chord. It’s like the sun comes out.
DG: Cool – it’s cool that that’s what you got for a vibe from it.
GK: Yeah, that’s actually a classical technique – there’s a name for that, which I can’t remember right now. That’s the song where Darin plays this beautiful piano … he’s really one of the most underrated musicians around – a real badass. At that point you’ve been through such a trip already – that’s when we said, “We need the piano – we need that resolution.” It allowed the journey to end in a different place from where it began.
DG: Previous to that, you’ve been through a pretty heavy listening experience – there’s a lot going on. And I think we both wanted to end on a lighter note – or on a note of light, as you said: “The sun comes out.”
BR: Oh, yeah – you get to the end and it’s like, “Hey – we made it.”
GK: I’m so glad you like the record, man – that’s great.
DG: I love the visuals … I love hearing people’s gut reactions to the music.
BR: And I don’t think we exposed too many magic secrets …
DG: Secrets? What secrets? (laughter)
*****
Brian Robbins is a steady contributor to the site. His monthly column is “The Maine Line.”
