I spoke to Krishna Das shortly after the completion of his spring tour. With 14 albums, workshops, retreats and kirtans (concerts that feature call-and-response devotional chanting with musical accompaniment) played around the world, his stature has placed him into bigger and bigger venues.
“Actually, the tour wasn’t that bad,” he said during an interview from his New York home, “but it’s nice to be not moving all the time. It wasn’t as strenuous as I thought it would be.”
Like a rock star, the amount of shows across the United States and their compact schedule put him in a different setting mentally.
“It was also getting used to living in the bus with eight other people and getting used to the rhythm of being in the bus all night. It’s like living on a space station. You go out into outer space, you do your thing, then you get back into the station and you never really land on earth, you know it’s really strange. But it was good.”
Although he has created a strong following, his aim isn’t to be a leader of others. Rather he wants to share and inspire through music. As he points out in conversation or performance, he’s still someone aiming to be a better person, rather than perfection incarnate.
Born Jeffrey Kagel, he grew up on Long Island. It was here that he became the frontman for Soft White Underbelly, which later morphed into Blue Oyster Cult. After meeting Ram Dass and later Maharaj-ji in India, he turned his back on that world for something that he describes as saving his life. When he returned to America, Kagel came up with music as a way to serve Maharaj-ji, blending western structures with a dedication to eastern philosophy. Developing his chanting style, KD also enriched his musical self with shows by Bruce Springsteen and the Clash.
That mix can be heard on his latest album, Heart As Wide As the World, particularly on “Naaraayana/For Your Love” which unites the Sanskrit with the Yardbirds classic. It’s also what has attracted musicians such as Sting, Walter Becker (Steely Dan) and Rick Allen (Def Leppard) to collaborate with him.
The idea of speaking with Krishna Das for Jambands came to me after I attended one of his kirtans in Cleveland. Although I observed more than I chanted, the experience reminded me of what it felt like to be part of a great and fulfilling Grateful Dead concert, where there was a dramatic arc, a spiritual awakening and an uplifting sensation.
Singing and playing the harmonium, his chants normally begin at a slow, deliberate pace and then increase in rhythm for what steadily becomes a cathartic event.
Looking around, I could see all these little stories that played similar to what transpired during an evening with the Dead. There were some like me who sat and watched, while others chanted/sang along and, finally, a group of people danced in ways that made perfect sense to their union of mind and body.
I explain the scene and the elements that unite a particular concert event with the unfolding of a kirtan and how the more I investigated the more layers could be found in Krishna Das – the kirtankar, the musician, the seeker, the performer, the author.
JPG: In regards to one of your kirtans, are you able to step back and see how it relates to a regular concert experience?
KD: Well, yes and no. I’m honored and very humbled by the fact that you take it seriously as music because that’s just so secondary. The focus is really the spiritual nature of it. That’s the focus. But, of course, to communicate that and deepen the experience for everybody, it has to be done well — the sound to do the music, to play and all that.
Somebody said to me shortly after I first started playing, ‘What time is soundcheck?’ And I said, ‘What? I didn’t even know what a soundcheck was. And over time I began to realize I don’t know what the audience is hearing, so I need to pay attention to that, because if you want to translate this experience and communicate, you have to pay attention to getting that right. So, that’s when the other side began to develop too, the musical aspect of it.
JPG: Have you ever had any concert experience that resulted for you the exuberance that your kirtans do now for others?
KD: I came back from India, came out to the west coast. The first concert I saw was Bob Marley and the Wailers at the University of California Berkley. Outside. Beautiful concert. I was sitting right at the feet of the I Threes, and he came out and they started dancing and they said, ‘We’re jammin’ straight from God.’ And I went, ‘Holy shit!’ I just came from India. I didn’t know anything like that was…it was amazing! And that was, I’ll never forget that. That was just so incredible.
And I love, I worship Bruce Springsteen. I think he’s a Bodhisattva of the highest order in that he embodies the yearnings, the desires, the disappointments, a whole life quality of a whole subculture. And he raises it up, lifts all that up and infuses it with a completely transcendent nature that some guy in New Jersey working a daily 9-to-5 job probably is not aware of. And Bruce does that. He gives life a different context and it’s extraordinary what he does.
JPG: I’ve always found it amazing with Bruce that even when he’s playing arenas, you can be 100 or more yards away yet you still feel like he’s talking to you. I don’t know how he does that.
KD: Have you ever heard his version of “Chimes of Freedom?” Amazing. Did you say you’re from Cleveland?
JPG: Cleveland area.
KD: I remember the KSAN broadcast of Bruce’s shows from Cleveland.
JPG: Probably the Agora show from ’78. A classic.
KD: And we taped it off the radio. I also saw the Clash on Broadway.
JPG: At Bonds?
KD: At Bonds. You want to talk about transcendence. I don’t remember breathing the whole time. It was so extraordinary. And, of course, they closed the place down. (laughing)
JPG: Talking about stuff like that. Your success, your connection to people, your ability to make inroads to people’s consciousness, do you think that comes about because you are able to balance a down-to-earth western mentality with an eastern spirituality?
KD: I’ve gone through a lot of changes myself. I went to India originally for forever. Was not coming back. I had no desire to be in America or western culture at all. And I left, and Maharaji-ji sent me back, that I had work to do here myself. He was never one to say anything about the future, but he said I had attachment here and I needed to come back here. So, he sent me back and I do get to tribute to the power of this practice that I have that I am who I am today. It’s so easy to get sidetracked by your own desires and without even knowing it, all of a sudden, you start to get really stupid. But the practice is so powerful and so humbling that it continually gives me the right perspective over and over again. Brings me back to earth every time I sit down to do it. And it’s the power of the practice that I share with people. I’m not trying to do anything to people or for people other than just share this practice and allow it to work for them. That seems to be going okay.
*JPG: The word ‘humbling’. I want to bring that up because you are described as yoga’s rock star. Is that something that you not only shrug off but you have to consciously knock down from letting it take over the perception others have of you? *
KD: Not really. For whatever (sighs)….basically, my head is screwed on fairly straight. I’m 62 years old, I’m not a kid, I’m not out to get laid 10 times a night. I’m not out for fame or money. I’ve been there. It’s just, I want to be happy. I want to be peaceful. I want to learn to be compassionate and caring. These are the values that I’ve adopted, that I’ve learned count over the years with my guru, with other great saints, with Tibetans.
This is the way life really is. These are the important things in life. When people call me a rock star, I can get a little hit off of that. That’s funny. I don’t take it very seriously. What it does tell me is people are responding to the chanting and that the chanting means something to them. And that’s the way this culture talks. So, I’m a big fish in a very small puddle. Not like, I don’t have any problem walking down the street. Nobody’s after me. It’s not like that. It’s not about that. All the great teachers that I’ve ever been with have been accessible to everybody. They’re there for people. Those are the models that I treasure, not destructive rock star archetypes.
JPG: Speaking of which, I find very interesting in your bio that it all could have turned out quite differently if you would have stuck with Soft White Underbelly (an early version of Blue Oyster Cult). Around how old were you when this happened, early 20s?
KD: I was college age, when I left the guys from the Cult. That was probably summer of ‘69, so 22.
JPG: You were making a major, major decision because so many other people would be willing to stick around and give it a shot. What was gnawing at you at the time that you had to turn your back on that?
KD: Nothing was gnawing at me. It was exactly the opposite. I had fallen in love. I met Ram Dass. When I met Ram Dass, I met my guru and I felt something in my life that I never felt before. It wasn’t even close, man. It wasn’t even close. There was no decision to make. I wasn’t torn at all. There was no possibility of me doing that at that time. I knew what I wanted, and I was getting it and I had connected to it through Ram Dass because he had just come back from India after being with Maharaj-ji.
And it was like the lights had gone on for the first time in my whole goddamn life. The lights went on. There was no fucking way that I was going back to do that with those people. I wasn’t fooled at all and that’s what saved me. If the lights hadn’t gone on, if I hadn’t met Ram Dass, then, of course, I would have gone and done it. And, of course, I’d be dead now. There’s no possible way I’d be alive.
That’s what I call grace. He took it out of my hands, really. You know when you fall in love, you forget everything else or you forget all the other women you went out with, and the one you’re in love with is the best. And that’s where I was. I had found something in it, and I just could not, I was so in awe that it existed and I couldn’t believe that it was real, but it was. There was no way that going back and cutting those tracks with those guys was at all…at that moment it was like shit on a stick, really. It couldn’t compare. That’s what saved me. If it was up to me, if I hadn’t had that experience with Ram Dass, then there’s no question that’s what I would have done. And I wouldn’t be here and we wouldn’t be talking.
JPG: Just out of curiosity, what instrument did you play with them?
KD: I was a singer. I played a little guitar, but I wasn’t that good. If I stayed in it, I would have been practicing and I would have gotten better on guitar. Donald (“Buck Dharma” Roeser) was just learning how to play when I met him, but already he had an extraordinary sound and lyrical ability. It was so beautiful, even back in the beginning. But, no I wasn’t tortured at all at that point.
JPG: That’s great. Other people would think, just as I did, that there would be some pull in the other direction, but on the other hand, as you put it, there was such a strong presence, such a strong bond and idea that this is right.
KD: Yeah. For the first time in my life I knew. I knew that this is where I was going. So, there was no doubt about that, really, which is very unusual, if you think about it. But the timing seemed perfectly reasonable. I had tripped and fallen into something that was so amazing, there was no possibility that I was going to turn my back on it.
JPG: I read the blog q&a with you and “Heart As Wide As the World” producer David Nichtern and there was the question about what do you think the differences and similarities are between the practice you do and traditional Buddhist practices. You talked about how your guru encompasses all teachings, which I find interesting because when I look at a kirtan described or I read Maharaj-ji described, one place he is described as a Hindu guru, but then I also read that when you talk about the chants it’s as a non-denominational thing.
KD: Most definitely. And, in fact, even though he was Hindu, supposedly…I mean, he was born in India, he was Hindu, and he never initiated us. He never made us dress up in a certain way, he never told us, and he never made us Hindus in any way. He talked to us about Christ for Christ’s sake. He always said it’s all one. It’s all one. All paths lead to the same goal. It’s all one. Over and over again. That was his teachings. And so we didn’t get stuck in that. And that’s why I feel totally right about presenting these chantings outside of religion, but not outside of spirituality, which is your own inner quest.
JPG: I like that because with religion everybody aspires to the same thing, but they get caught up in the terminology.
KD: Which is actually a way people divide themselves and cause suffering.
JPG: Back to the concert for a second and then moving on to the new album. What really convinced me about the kirtan that night was when you played Ry Cooder’s “Jesus on the Mainline.” It just broke up the whole thing and let it be known that a little fun could be thrown in there. I just sat there laughing. Tell me about bringing that song into it.*
KD: First of all, it’s not Ry’s song, it’s a traditional song. He, obviously, did one of the greatest versions of it. You know, I had my own problems with Jesus and Christianity. I was born Jewish. My Catholic friends wouldn’t talk to me after they were confirmed for a while. It was just horrible growing up in those days and I just grew up hating organized religion in general because I saw it as just causing suffering. And I didn’t think there was anything in there at all.
When I get to India, Maharaj-ji started to talk to us about Jesus, but in a completely different way. He saw Him as a great yogi, as a saint, as a realized being and he would cry when his name was mentioned and this was not a show. So, we had to take that very seriously and we were very affected by it. I think a lot of westerners are carrying a lot of negativity towards organized religion and Christianity because of all the suffering and all the bullshit. It’s kind of nice to bring it up and lance the boil a little bit. Those boils cause us suffering unless we let go of that stuff. It’s going to keep hurting us. Since I had it, I figured a lot of other people had the same problems.
JPG: Did you ever encounter anyone that was offended that you weren’t using Sanskrit terms, that you were singing in English?
KD: Yeah, I get that sometimes, but I find that everybody sees things their own way. Everybody has their own version of reality and I’m using more and more English now along with the Sanskrit because I feel that one of the main problems that westerners have is a lack of positive thought forms. In other words, we can do a lot of practice. We can do mantra practice or yoga practice or all kinds of stuff, right? But what is the truth of those practices? What’s supposed to happen? What’s supposed to happen is that we’re supposed to develop a deeper sense of well-being. We’re supposed to get happy. But westerners don’t have the channels, they don’t have the circuitry to allow that happiness to come back to their own hearts and there’s a lot of good reasons why we don’t, for sure. Our parents weren’t happy. Their parents weren’t happy. Nobody we knew was happy. We don’t have any models for being happy and having positive self-caring thoughts about ourselves.
So, to start this thing in English pushes a lot of buttons and still does, but I started to do it because I recognize that it helps me. Believe me, I’m not doing anything to anybody, but it helps me to start to express some of these things in English. English is the language I grew up with. It’s the language I taught myself with. English and those thoughts in English, I have to develop a way of feeling better about myself and chanting gives me the strength to face those places in myself, those dark corners and talking and chanting in English has helped me a lot to kind of own some of those places that feel vulnerable and hurt, carrying all that stuff.
JPG: Do you think that by doing “Jesus on the Mainline” in English it awakened things in you more or you saw the response and gave more credence to do more in English?
KD: I don’t know. Truth is I just really like it. (laughs) That’s why I do it. I love it! And people get to forget that they’re doing a spiritual practice. They get to enjoy themselves. And that’s ultimately what it’s all about; to be able to enjoy yourself in a positive way that includes other people as well.
JPG: That brings us to the new album, Heart As Wide As the World, because you’re using a combination of English and Sanskrit on it. I find it interesting that in the past you worked with Rick Rubin (Johnny Cash, Dixie Chicks, Red Hot Chili Peppers), who is known for challenging artists and developing different approaches yet he went for a more traditional method with you whereas Walter Becker (Steely Dan) encouraged you to do a “garage band” record.
KD: Rick’s actually not a big fan of western instruments for chanting, which is why he hesitated to help me with that cd. And then I ran out of time so I had to do it in New York with Walter and Jay and David Nichtern helped. But yeah, definitely, Rick prefers traditional acoustic instruments
JPG: As far as the recording itself, is it proper to call them songs or prayers or songs that are devotional tunes?
KD: I guess maybe song prayers because chanting is really an invocation invoking a deeper place in your own heart. And that’s the essence of prayer. So you could say song invocations or prayerful invocations. Prayer is one of those words that can push a lot of bad buttons. People see prayer as Christians pray, and people get turned off to that. So I would say song invocations or mantra invocations or I don’t know…
JPG: Normally with a recording, it’s either done live or there’s a take that focuses on the bass and drums or the vocals…In your case how do you keep yourself in the moment of recording but not losing yourself into the invocation? Is there a fine line you have to be aware of while in the studio?
KD: There is. You have to recognize when you’re recording, there’s a lot of technical stuff that you have to pay attention to, so the recording process is a little different than the concert but not so much different. Still, you have to be a little more restrained and make sure…so it’s a fine line. But you recognize since people are going to listen to this over and over and over again you have a responsibility that you have to get it right. It’s a little more tense in the studio because of that, and the idea of not getting lost in it.
Still, when I’m doing the practice with people, when I’m chanting with people at a so-called concert, I still don’t get lost. It’s my job to hold down the fort and still give myself to it completely. There’s dynamics to it. If I just got lost, sing a couple of words, then I’d just be sitting there silent for three hours. (laughs) So, that’s not going to work. I’ve learned to channel yourself in, to restrain yourself in certain ways, to direct yourself in certain ways. Just something that’s developed over time.
JPG: One of the things that I read in your bio is a list of musical heroes that includes Ray Charles, Van Morrison, Steely Dan, Bruce Springsteen, and the Yardbirds showing up again and again. Here you cover the Yardbirds’ “For Your Love” and you even titled your live album Heart Full of Soul. Are there more Yardbirds references to come?
KD: I don’t know. None of this is planned, I’m telling you. I don’t know how these things happen. The “For Your Love” just came out in the soundcheck by itself. I didn’t realize what it was. It was so funny. I didn’t think about it. We just kept doing it for a soundcheck song for so long, I thought, ‘What the hell, let’s record this.’ But the Yardbirds were great, you know that. That whole group.
JPG: Besides the album you also released a book. Sticking with the music theme, it’s called “Chants of a Lifetime: Searching for a Heart of Gold” which can reference the Neil Young song.
KD: It was very intentional. And I tried to get permission to actually use a quote from Neil. He was on tour and we were turned down. Management turned me down. I was just going to use, “I want to live/I want to give/ I’ve been a miner for a heart of gold,” but they wouldn’t let me use it.
JPG: Now the book itself, how far back do you go in your life and where do you end it?
KD: It’s not really linear. It picks and chooses different sections of my life because it’s all about how they relate to what I’m doing now. It covers pretty much, leaving out large sections of nonsense. It weeds out a lot of stuff but it mostly contains the experiences that led me to this is what it comes down to.
JPG: You seem to make an impact with your recordings and kirtans, what then inspired you to put the book out?
KD: I felt that so many people come and chant and there’s so much that they don’t know about this practice, where it comes from, what it means. I just thought that I’d present what it means to me and the way that I do it, and the reasons I do it and how I do it. So, people get a feel for where that comes from. And I thought that would be helpful for people to develop the practice. Like you say, I try to point out the non-religious aspect of it and talk a little bit about the psychological aspects of it. Tell experiences I had in India and afterwards with my guru and with others to help me to get deeper into it, that kind of stuff, in the hopes that having some kind of context would help people open up a little bit.
JPG: And the last thing, although this may have been answered in a roundabout way, the importance of the journey versus the end result.
KD: Well, we don’t know what the end result is (laughing) we could read about a lot of different versions of what people think the end result is. But all we have is, in reality, is our journey, is our lives, so that’s what the most important part of it. Dealing with what is now and what we have in front of us and finding a way to live a good life in spite of all the tensions and fears and bullshit that’s going on out there. That’s really the most important.
The end result as far as I’m concerned is becoming a good human being, a complete human being. It’s not about trying to get some blissful state that never changes. That’s not going to happen. But what does happen is that our hearts get stronger and more courageous and less vulnerable and we become better human beings and our plateau of well-being rises and gets more intense and we just become stronger more open people because of the deeper connection that we’re getting inside. We become a healthy cell in this huge body of the universe.
