Scott Avett at All Good – photo by John Patrick Gatta
The Avett Brothers developed when the allure of roots music became more appealing than being one among many hard rock acts. But it was the trio’s equal interest in the country, folk and classic rock of the past mixed with the punk energy of their formative years that played a role in creating a sound that can be achingly pretty one moment and rip the wallpaper off a room the next.
Despite years of touring that produced a strong foundation of devotees, Scott and Seth Avett and Bob Crawford went in a decidedly 20th century direction and moved to a major label rather than releasing their latest music themselves. Supported by co-head of Columbia Records, producer Rick Rubin (Johnny Cash, Dixie Chicks, Red Hot Chili Peppers and Neil Diamond) the members became inspired to make an album where the songs dictated the direction rather than be conscious of a live show to showcase them. The title track of “I and Love and You” and “The Perfect Space” find the addition of piano-based instrumentation offering a graceful respite from the more familiar hook-laden ways of the acoustic numbers (“And It Spread”) and simple pop ecstasy infused in “Kick Drum Heart.”
As I discussed matters with Scott Avett, I became aware of what was hinted at in the explanatory liner notes and design of the new album; that the explosions of energy during their performances masks an intellectual depth that manifests itself in other aspects of the band members creative output. It’s not much of a surprise to find that Avett received a Bachelor of Fine Arts in painting along with Bachelor of Science in radio broadcasting at East Carolina University.
As he explains, “When I go to see a band about 30 minutes in to seeing how great somebody is on their instruments, there’s a visual aspect for me. I really appreciate it and love to be impressed and influenced or inspired by it. For us, we’ve always wanted to offer something that wasn’t just everyday, and put you in-the-moment. It may not be behind, it may not be ahead, but it’s something different and that’s really fun and exciting, and adds to making it special.”
JPG: For several years I heard about the Avett Brothers but only caught up musically with 2007’s Emotionalism. I never saw you live until Bonnaroo. I’ll admit I was surprised at the audience’s rabid reaction to your performance. The same thing at All Good later that same summer. Was that type of feedback something that you encountered from the beginning in smaller rooms, or one that was cultivated over the years?
SA: Well, what kind of fed this and kept it going as it is in the form that it is, was that we got that we got that type of spark or explosion. It was a spark in the beginning, on much smaller levels instantly when we changed forms from more straightforward hard rock to channeling through two vocals and two acoustic instruments and using a little more raw energy. Much more raw energy. Bare energy. That sparked immediately on much smaller levels. We’ve been very fortunate to watch that spark multiply every time that we played.
JPG: The word of mouth aspect of it is very interesting because you’re not a MySpace type of band, but you still have this grassroots following with a strong interaction with fans via your website.
SA: The foundation has been built on the grassroots and grassroots of punk rock, whatever you want to call it, has been built in that element. The foundation is key, and the rest is, from here, you let it be what it will be. The sky’s the limit. We’re very fortunate because we didn’t know any better. We just knew what to do as far as keep traveling, keep playing shows. It’s what we wanted to do. We didn’t have big plans at the beginning; we just needed something to do just like everybody needs something to do. It was something we had a door open to, and you can do this if you want to do it, it’s there. There’s always another venue to go play and they’re booking you still, so keep doing it. That led us on and is still leading us on.
JPG: I read that you and Bob [Crawford] were about to attend graduate school, but he talked you into a month long tour and the three of you caught a glimpse of what could be.
SA: Absolutely! It’s funny, even on that first tour, during the tour, one of the days we spent in Athens, Ohio, Bob spent the day at the music department there because he had applied and been accepted in Ohio University there. He was very entertained going there, checking it out, while we were on tour.
JPG: It’s kind of like the old line when I was doing theater about having something to fall back on in case the arts world doesn’t pan out.
SA: Definitely, you hear that. It just rings over and over in my mind, but there is no bad education. If you spend 15 years in school that can’t be a bad thing. If I spend 10 years on the road that can’t be a bad thing because, no matter what, I spend so much time learning and seeing and if I’m correcting the mistakes I’m making along the way… Education is just priceless, however it may come, formal or not. And I think that that automatically gives you a foundation and cushion to fall back on anyway.
JPG: I interviewed Derek Trucks, who received his education as a teenager while on the road and continues it through his reading material during any downtime while touring, which is really fantastic. His mind’s enlightened through a combination of street education as well as a literary education.
SA: Absolutely! We’re afforded a lot of time in this business and the choice, the choosing of reading materials and the furthering of your education is huge for us as a group. Everybody from the band to the crew, we’re all one unit and we all share and talk about that. Right now, we’re in Iowa City and it’s just that great kind of atmosphere for that here. It’s a college town. It’s really exciting because you can find great book stores, great reading and strike up a conversation about such things. It’s really, really great.
JPG: Since you were looking at graduate schools I take it you that you did have something to fall back on.
SA: Sure, and regardless of those degrees, I think our parents did a good job of just work ethic, you know.
JPG: I’m glad you brought that up because that’s something that Rick [Rubin] mentioned in the press release; a hard-working touring band, the work ethic involved. Is that something you recognized from your parents instilling it in you or was it done subconsciously?
SA: Subconsciously. Getting your son out on a 40-foot tall concrete bridge to help him weld (laughs) gave you an idea of what it’s like to put in time. We did a lot of outside work, a lot of labor. Me, in particular, did many years with my dad working on his bridge company as well as, we have a hobby farm at home. It was a lot of responsibility that I’m not capable of always saying that I was the best at at all times, but we definitely were pushed. My parents provided the situations.
JPG: I’ve done some construction jobs and I think the beauty of it in a weird way is that as you are doing it there’s a good feeling of doing physical labor but it also refocuses you to do your original artistic work.
SA: Absolutely. I mean, those guys are, they are machines and they are just unbelievable people, the fellows that I worked with, the guys that didn’t question one bit, just went out and survived, just pure survivors. I have the utmost respect for them.
JPG: Now, I do want to talk more about as you put it your “hard rock” roots in Nemo. First off, is it that or your punk roots because I’ve seen it described both ways.
SA: I would imagine it was more hard rock, it wasn’t punk rock as per Black Flag, Sex Pistols and things like that, the Ramones, it wasn’t like that. It was more of a modern, I would say screamo, melodic hard core, probably would be something like that. But it was hard rock.
JPG: One thing that I heard was a comparison to Dinosaur Jr., which falls into both categories.
SA: Sure, we definitely screamed a lot more than Dinosaur Jr. was. It wasn’t like it was singing-oriented, but we were influenced quite a bit by bands like Faith No More. Things like that was kind of the direction we were going towards.
Avett Takes Flight
JPG: As far as the direction you segued into with Avett Brothers, I hear echoes of Violent Femmes in there because of the way you incorporated the energy of punk with acoustic sounds.
SA: Absolutely. I got introduced to Violent Femmes in 1991. I was 11 years old at the time, but I remember when I heard it, I just assumed it was brand new because it definitely stood the test of time, as it still does. It still could be put out now, easily. And in hindsight I know they had a huge effect on me when we transferred over to acoustic instruments and we’re attacking them the same way we were with the electric and distorted instruments. It’s like attacking a banjo more like you do a drum kit than you do a banjo in a traditional way.
JPG: Your bio mentions you listening to your father’s 8-track collection for inspiration, which included Dylan, Neil Young, etc. Were you even noticing those bands before when he played them or were you more like ‘Screw that old stuff, I’m into Faith No More.’ And possibly out of boredom you eventually fell into those sounds?
SA: I think it was more of both. But it was full circle, sort of like the 8-track collection as children before we were deciphering what we thought was cool or what wasn’t cool. We were listening to whatever was put in front of us. If it was good, it was good. It was everything from Kenny Rogers to John Denver to Three Dog Night to John Conlee, Dylan Neil Young, what else, what else was there…there was The Muppet Show on Friday night. (laughs)
All that, Simon & Garfunkel, Paul Simon, all these things were around. And you start seeing current records that your parents are buying, like from Neil Diamond that my mom was very interested in. For some reason, we ended up with a Men at Work album and some of the Police. Then, we started getting further and further into pop. As it went from Men At Work, Police or Hall & Oates to Prince then Michael Jackson. From there we just got led on as most to a kind of rock and roll boot camp. You eventually lead yourself to Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd, Jimi Hendrix. Then, you start pulling yourself up to date around 14 years old. (laughs) That’s kind of what happened, really.
JPG: So, did you go back to those artists and listen to them with new ears?
SA: Yep. Definitely. It was definitely going back to those things and not really recalling what we heard or connected to but now we were listening to them after going through much of this other discovery, experimenting with other found listening.
JPG: Going with that idea of changes. With I and Love and You, it seems like a transitional record as far as career — going to a major label – as well thematically, lyrically and musically. How did it come to encapsulate all those things at once?
SA: The change to a major label and the change in the sound is partly coincidence, but we were headed there anyway. Regardless. Producer Rick Rubin getting involved helped us enhance what we were leaning towards. He didn’t direct instrumentation, really at all. Sometimes he might say, ‘Well, let’s just go ahead and do the guitar and drums instead of trying to do the guitar, piano, the drums and the bass.’ But if we were wanting to do a song with piano, guitar and the drums then nobody was making the decisions but the Avett Brothers. We also let them focus on the business and the marketing departments, which by default we’d had our hands in quite a bit along the way. We needed help with that because we were slammed, and we were getting to where we couldn’t afford the time to do it anymore. So, with a major label, with Columbia coming in, it was absolutely amazing. I just can’t stress how amazing they’ve been. It’s been a win win situation with that and those changes have been able to elevate those changes up to a brighter level.
JPG: You mentioned Rick Rubin. I’ve heard various things about him from barely around in the studio to listening and helping the artists find a strong musical vision. Give me an idea of what he did.
SA: Well, I can only speak on our experience, and just like you, I’ve heard my fair share of things…but you hear a lot of things. I hear things about me that I don’t even know are true. So, as we move along, I learn to let the blinders be and not worry with some of that. He was very present with our record, but I stress the fact that this is our experience, because, maybe, we were welcoming to that and maybe other acts don’t work that way as much and maybe he recognizes that. He was very pointed in the fact that he was able to adapt and work with each artist, finding out how we worked first and then helping to bring that to its fullest.
JPG: I must say it’s usually exciting when his name is attached to a project because, whether or not he’s in the studio every day or just popping in or whatever, it always seems that in the end the artist is happy and the results are usually pretty amazing. He somehow brings out something that the artist didn’t know was within them.
SA: Well, you hope. And you hope that’s happening in every record, but regardless of those benefits, which are definitely there, there’s no doubt about it as far as his involvement and acknowledgment of that, which we were honored and flattered to have. That’s just icing on the cake.
Really, what we were looking at doing, I made it clear that if we make a record that we don’t necessarily think is what we wanted, or great, or the whole world doesn’t think it’s great it’s irrelevant. If we learn as much as we possibly can with this producer that’s done many more years of producing than we did, and that was the key. Easier said than done, but, once again, going back to education, that was huge for this process. In the process we felt really good and comfortable about what we made.
JPG: You allowed him to sequence the album. Was that something that he asked to do or were you confused in how to do it and had him take a shot at it?
SA: We always sequenced the albums, and haven’t always done it in the past. It’s something that we enjoy to do, but we were looking forward to stepping back on this record and letting this record be that group effort, and letting Rick be what he was going to be with the record. We wanted that. We wanted to make something with Rick. That was great. And we really, really enjoyed it. What’s the difference in me doing it, Seth doing it, or Rick doing it as far as all of our involvement in making a great work that we can be proud of? It was great to have him do it.
JPG: With previous albums I imagine you were recording with the thought of the live show. With the added instrumentation and the arrangements here, were you not thinking about playing the stuff live or because it’s four onstage with the addition of cellist Joe Kwong, you felt the sound can expand?
SA: We just wanted to make a record be whatever it would be. We didn’t bring any thought of what it would be after. We wanted whatever became in the studio to dictate what we would start with, and I can already tell songs are gonna change. We can already foresee some different versions of these songs as they adapt in live settings. In the studio one of the lessons that we learned right off the bat was when we were attacking the very first song we were trying to record, which was “Laundry Room,” and we were doing it just like we were doing it live. And it wasn’t anywhere close to the spirit, to the energy, we have live when we do it. And we were having a lot of trouble with instrumentation being the source of the problem. So Seth and I switched gears a little bit to the way it was written, which was just acoustic guitar, piano.
That was the first lesson learned saying, ‘This is a recording. This is not a show up here. We’re not setting up like we’re on stage. We’re setting up on here to get the most out of this as we can for it to be what it is.’ And we ran with that the whole time. We actually did decisions based on that in the studio saying, ‘No, we’ll do this. You wrote it on the piano, let’s stay on the piano. Don’t shift over to the banjo. Keep it on the piano.’
JPG: And I see that you kept that going onstage, using the piano for certain numbers. Now, as far as the album’s artwork, which you painted, I find it very interesting the way you portray the three of you as well as the cover portrait. Could you give me some idea behind it? The person on the cover looks Native American and there’s a skull and I’m not sure what the other image is due to the lighting…
SA: When she leans in, it’s her shoulder; she’s leaning and turning the other way. She’s wrapped in a black blanket, which (slight laugh) makes total sense to me when I was painting it because the depth. I was bringing bright light meeting dark. So, much of it was disappearing into the darkness. It made a lot of sense to me. I answer this question a lot, which is simply her shoulder.
JPG: Okay. That’s what I thought at first, but I wasn’t totally sure. Are you the type of artist that it pains you to explain…?
SA: No, no, not at all. In music, I think it’s less important. I think in visuals, it is very relevant as far as when it comes to concepts. If you are interested, I could tell you exactly what I started with everything.
JPG: Yes, please go ahead.
SA: She’s basically a model that works for the university that I went to, East Carolina; a very, very dependable one and great, great individual and artist as well. She actually does have some Native American blood, but I don’t think that’s relevant to the picture. The picture and the setup, it was to be a representation of the vanities of human life. I went through all the symbols for the vanities of human life and there are many of them — hourglass, musical instruments, seashells from faraway places representing travel, gold representing death, timepieces and just basically riches of life — and how in Ecclesiastes in the Bible, how they really amount to nothing. It’s kind of a pessimistic way of looking at things but I think on the other hand it’s extremely optimistic if your interpretation of it is, I guess, it shows go in another direction. But we started with quite a few symbols around her and that was to be the direction, to have many more symbols in it and as I worked, I started to reason with myself. It was very cluttered. I did not like how it was looking because a little too forced. And I started pushing out pieces. The drumsticks went, the hourglass went, any symbol. I had a flower it there. That went.
So, as I left the skull I started (slight laugh) reasoning with myself that with the female figure, being an hourglass in shape, and derive from it enough that I can keep the timepiece within the female; the lust between, between lustful people or the lust directed say between a man and a woman, just lust period can be in the longing of want to win or succeed or have or possess is to be in the position and the posture of her as well as it doubles over with there should be a bit of concern and torment in her face. And then the skull is the inevitable death that is looming over all of us.
I wanted it to be subtle when I turned it. It didn’t need to be a threatening death, but it needed to be an awareness. So, I also saw a correlation with the three. And I probably tied that in over years as I write about it for myself and think about it. I’ll probably re-work the whole thing again anyway. With the portraits [of the three band members], I just wanted to do the same thing in the same light the same setting, seriousness and keep the depth because to me it was key. I look at so many pieces of album covers and artwork and I’m often disappointed. I’m sometimes really delighted and love to see them, but I wanted to keep it in the fine art realm and not just jump into a quick fix on the computer. Not that the computer’s bad. It can really be great but for what I was trying to do, I really needed to stay away from it.
JPG: I like the idea that the credits describe it as oil on canvas, which gives it an idea of the level that you were giving to it, that it wasn’t just a photo or something that was thrown together. We started off talking about music festivals. You have played so many. What do you feel the Avett Brothers offer a festival and what do festivals offer you?
SA: Hmmm…Well, they definitely offer an opportunity to have fun, where sometimes the theater and club setting we go in much more serious about the dynamics. And festivals are kind of like big picnics. I think that’s needed for everybody to cut loose. That’s really enjoyable for us, and I think that translates. That’s kind of like the painting, kind of like we were talking about the grassroots thing. That is an organic action that we can have and continue to have where the elements, the weather, the variables of just being outdoors can affect us all. And we can all react to those limitations, which is great.
Bonnaroo is a great example of that. I remember 30 minutes into that set leaning over and asking our tour manager, ‘How long we got?’ I was thinking I’m totally going to pass out during the show. For those limitations and for the push that they give you, you react and I think that translates as well. I think that is very exciting.
