Tom Marshall has worn many hats in the Phish world during the past thirty-plus years. Most importantly, he’s been Trey Anastasio’s primary writing partner since the Princeton Day School friends first reconnected in the mid-1980s, but he’s also helped Phish through some of their most famous song parodies and musical gags and served as an unofficial liaison between the band their fans for many years. He even helped bring back a forgotten piece of equipment shortly before Phish’s return in 2009.
More recently, he’s ventured into the world of podcasting with his new, insightful thrice-monthly show Under the Scales. Each episode of the program focuses on a different part of the diverse Phish community, from noted statistician David Steinberg and fellow Phish songwriter Steve “The Dude of Life” Pollak to the minds behind High Times, Phantasy Tour and the cover band Runaway Gin. He also sat down with Anastasio and former Justin Bieber musical director Dan Kanter during a recent Madison Square Garden run for a lively and far-ranging conversation. (Click here for Marshall’s recent Relix-focused episode.) While gearing up for the 14th episode of Under the Scales, Marshall took a moment to discuss his new podcast, recent songwriting sessions and how his old band Amfibian helped set the stage for Joe Russo’s Almost Dead.
This is the first time you have hosted your own podcast. What initially inspired you to start Under the Scales ?
It happened because of walking. I walk five miles a day most days. I have lots of different music options, but I complained to a friend that I was simply getting tired of music in general. I told him that I’d been opting for silence rather than filling my head with the same music over and over, so he opened my eyes to podcasts. This was in 2014. I never looked back. I love podcasts. It was really Analyze Phish that made me start thinking about a Phish podcast, because that one delighted me in so many ways. [In his podcast Analyze Phish, Parks & Recreation producer and comedy writer Harris Wittels tried to explain the beauty of Phish to fellow comic Scott Aukerman. Wittels, who also contributed to Relix, passed away in 2015.] I began to think of how I might be in a unique position to provide Phish info and impart knowledge to fans.
Though still new, Under the Scales has featured a unique mix of guests, from Trey Anastasio to noted voices in the Phish community and some lesser known fans that still have inspiring stories. How has the scope of who you hope to profile on the program progressed since Under the Scales initially launched?
I’m only 13 episodes deep so far. I think I’m still finding an identity, but I know that the heading “Phish Culture” is broad enough to allow me to experiment with a different mix of interviewees, as well as hopefully some different show formats before I really know what my ultimate mission is. Right now, I’m having fun and trying to bring interesting people to the mic, as long as they have some tie to Phish. Maybe that is my ultimate mission?
In certain ways, you have always been something of a liaison between the Phish fan community and the band members themselves. Can you share a story about a time you brought an idea to the band from the larger Phish community—maybe helped bring back a song, style or other change?
The Ross Compressor comes to mind. Phantasy Tour was attempting to come to grips with Trey’s “new tone” in 2009 when Phish returned. In fact, they thought it was missing something. Some eagle-eyed guitarists among the PT crowd noticed that one of Trey’s signature effect stomp-boxes on the floor in front of him as he played was no longer included in his setup. They became obsessed with getting Trey a Ross Compressor. Through a very impressive concerted effort, PT collaborated in actually buying one of these slightly expensive and somewhat rare effect boxes. Then, of course, the problem became, how to get it to Trey?
That’s when a friend of mine, Scott Gray, enlisted my aid. I delivered the compressor to Trey and photo-documented it and reported back, to the delight of PT. I’ll say that Trey was very touched that people noticed and cared that much. It was a great band-fan moment. Trey used it for a while, I understand, but continued to experiment with his tone, so the compressor now, sadly, has again been relegated to some offstage safe zone. But I do feel that this incident gave Trey even more determination to continue his quest for the perfect tone. And, I must say, I think his tone now has surpassed anything he’s achieved before.
Have you noticed any overarching themes tying your various interview subjects together thus far?
It would, of course, be cliché for me to say, “their love of Phish,” but, if anything, I am always surprised and touched when I realize how deeply a band and its music can affect people. The people I talk to are generally people who listen to the band extremely carefully. The shows are incredibly important events in their lives; the songs are the soundtrack to their lives; the band are their heroes. I try to get them to focus on me as a fan first, rather than me as part of the Phish apparatus, because that is the optimum angle of approach for Under the Scales.
One of the most talked about Under the Scales conversations featured Trey speaking with Dan Kanter. How did you and Dan first connect, and had he spoken with you and Trey in a formal setting before?
No, the three of us hadn’t been together at the same time I don’t think. I really needed Dan there to be my “guitar expert,” to enable the “deep dive” aspect of that guitar interview. Dan and I met in the audience at Bader Field in Atlantic City during those shows [in 2012]. We’d stayed in touch since then, and he just naturally sprang to mind when I thought of the many questions I had about Trey’s guitars. I could frame the questions in an interview, but I knew they’d be more meaningful and legit if I had a meaningful, legit dude like Dan with me.
You have revisited your Phish sit-ins on several Under the Scales episodes. Many times in the 1990s, especially around New Year’s Eve, you sat in with the band on a fun cover or conceptual gag. How did that tradition start and develop over the years?
Trey kind of brought that up in “Part 1” of the interview, when he talked about how jokes would begin on the bus and then just immediately flow out onto the stage without much thinking or analysis. So if I happened to be on the bus when one of those jokes was forming, like, “Tom should sing the song ‘Tommy’ by The Who!” or, “We really should cover that Proclaimers’ song, ‘500 Miles’ or ‘Tubthumping,’” then the likelihood of a Tom appearance that night would be pretty high. Now, the band travels on completely separate buses, so the breeding grounds for jokes like that have diminished a bit. Plus, as Trey said, their filter for gags like that has gotten a little more developed. I personally think gags are great, and I think the audience loves Phish gags, but perhaps impromptu gags are going to be fewer and further between in favor of more planned ones.
You and Steve Pollak have been two of Trey Anastasio’s primary songwriting partners since before Phish. Yet, in Steve’s Under the Scales episode, you mention that your friendship and writing collaboration really started blossoming around Festival 8 in 2009. When did you first start working on songs with Steve, and do you plan to release any of those collaborations outside of the podcast?
That really was the beginning. Steve and I have written together several times and have maybe 10 songs now. The podcast was a good way to release that one song called “Second Sight.” I, unfortunately, referred to it as its working title “Night” also during that interview, so now people call it by both names. That’s the danger of an untraditional release—no real control, no way to gauge reaction, etc. That’s kind of fine with me, but I think Steve would prefer if we did a tour or something, or at least a show to kick off an album release. I’m not ruling it out, but it’s also something that right now isn’t top priority, but that could change! We’ll keep writing, and I’ll get excited, and boom, we’ll do a quick show somewhere.
*Your songwriting trips have factored into several episodes of the podcast, and the way you and Trey write together seems to change a bit on each trip. How would you describe your collaboration during the recent North Carolina trip that led to a few Big Boat songs that Trey discussed in Relix’s recent Phish cover story?
“No Men” and “Blaze On” are extremely poignant memories from that trip. You’re right—every one of the writing excursions was different, and I think I would love to sit down with Trey and play the songs and recreate the session as a podcast. We have a lot of material to do that with! Kitty Hawk on the Outer Banks was our destination. Possibly, its proximity to Kill Devil Hill, the real life counterpart to “Kill Devil Falls,” was what drove us there? I don’t recall. But it was one of those beautiful houses on Ocean Boulevard, empty during February, during the off-season. We knew that, and so we had the place to ourselves.
You mentioned to me that you always love collaborating with someone when you are working on a project. How does working with an artistic partner help your creative process?
Maybe, because I started songwriting in collaboration with someone, it’s how I just need to do it? Judging from the few attempts I’ve made to write alone, I really have personal proof that one plus one is three, when songwriting anyway. Perhaps it’s sharing the creative hurdles, but also the joy of completing a song? Again, this is a tough question to nail down, apart from saying that it just works better for me to write with someone else.
It has been a few years since your band Amfibian last played or recorded. Do you have any plans to work under that name again?
It’s always in the back of my head. No concrete plans right now, but honestly, I can feel part of me stirring. My inner, sleeping reptile brain is awakening after a long hibernation.
Speaking of Amfibian, long before Joe Russo’s Almost Dead, you actually helped bring guitarist Scott Metzger into the jam/live music scene. How did you first meet Scott, Andrew Southern and the rest of the RANA crew and bring them into your band?
Scott is such a great guy. I need to re-hook up with him, soon I hope. I can’t take credit for that, really. My pal Matt Kohut, who was my bass player, was also in a band where he discovered Scott called F-Hole. F-Hole joined Amfibian kind of at the same time that Andrew Southern came aboard—I knew [Andrew] from Princeton Day School. And they formed RANA together during Amfibian’s downtime. [Metzger joined RANA while playing with Amfibian, and their time with Marshall helped land the group a residency at New York’s Wetlands and began a longstanding association with Russo.]
Of all songs you have written, is there one in particular that you think has become more timely or appreciated years after it was first performed or released?
Yes! “Buffalo Bill!” It is extremely relevant now, given the current political climate.
