This month, guitarist John Scofield is teaming up with longtime friend and pianist Jon Cleary for a tour that will see the two delve into the R&B traditions that both musicians hold dear. Seemingly a disparate duo—Cleary, England-born but New Orleans-based in every sense, and Scofield, steeped in modern improvisational jazz fusion—the two have found common ground in the music of legends like Professor Longhair, Johnny “Guitar” Watson and Little Willie John.
Cleary doesn’t claim to be a jazz expert (“I don’t know where these notes come from, but I love it,” he says of Scofield’s playing) and Scofield has nothing but praise for Cleary’s style, saying playing with him “is like playing with the whole band.” Together, they make it work. Below, the two studied and accomplished musicians go back and forth about how they first met over 20 years ago, their current project and why their styles match up so well onstage.
How did the two of you meet initially and then start playing together?
Jon Cleary: Well, I met Scofield through a mutual friend and was invited round to his house for Thanksgiving, around 1991 I suppose. And I knew very little about him, and he knew actually nothing about me. But we chatted, and I just thought he was a very friendly guy. I liked him straight away. I was aware that he was a very famous jazz guitar player, but to be honest with you I never actually heard any of his records. I was into New Orleans R&B, not jazz fusion. But I liked him—very down to earth. And then we’d sort bump into each other at festivals or in airport lounges, and he was always very cordial.
John Scofield: And I have been a fan of his since then. We stayed in touch over the years, and then when I made this Piety Street record—he’s like the main guy on that record. He sang most of the lead stuff, he played keyboards on everything. Then we toured for a couple of years, we did a bunch of gigs together as the Piety Street Project. So we got pretty tight doing that.
JC: I got a call one day to see if I could come down to the studio. He had come down to New Orleans and was just inviting local musicians down to play. I think he was just trying to feel out the scene—he wanted to cut something in New Orleans, he wanted to do a gospel record. And then I’d been out of town and I think I was flying in about an hour before he was flying out, and so we had about twenty minutes and went straight to the studio. It was nice to see him, and we sat down and played. He said, “Well, you want to come do this, you want to make a record?” And then we did the sessions and did the record, went out and did some touring. Toured for about two years and played all over the world and got to know each other better. He’s really just a down-to-earth, very friendly guy—as well as being a brilliant musician.
How did this duo project start up?
JS: The way this started was—you know Soulive, the band? They have a thing they do at Brooklyn Bowl every year. They invited us—I guess it was two years ago now—they invited both me and Cleary to be guests. One of the things we did on that show was we played a tune just the two of us, just me and Jon. And it really worked out great, so I thought, “Man, we gotta play more,” because playing with Jon Cleary is like playing with the whole band, the way he plays the piano. And the Soulive show was kind of a reunion for us, and that’s when I thought, “Wow, we should really try doing this duo.” It’s a different thing, just playing just guitar and piano—it really becomes a concert. You can’t slam it like you do with a rhythm section. But again, Jon Cleary’s piano covers the bass and the drums and everything—that’s all in there. So for me, it feels like we’re a whole band.
And what do you have in store for the upcoming tour?
JS: So we’d done a tour six months ago or something, we did a month in Europe, and worked out this repertoire. And it’s really fun because it’s just the two of us and we can really kind of wing it. But the material that we’re doing is primarily old R&B tunes—like kind of from the fifties, that really fit Jon’s thing, which is that he’s a great keeper-of-the-flame of New Orleans piano, traditional R&B. And he’s singing his ass off—his singing’s incredible. So we do tunes by Little Willie John—one of his and my favorites—and some Professor Longhair music for sure—real New Orleans stuff. A couple of Johnny “Guitar” Watson things and, you know, some blues. It’s definitely more in that area than in the other bands I have. It’s been a blast.
JC: We had one rehearsal about a year ago—it lasted us about two hours and then we went off to get a po’ boy or oysters or something. We’re still working off that rehearsal, basically. I mean, different things come in, you know—it’s never the same show twice. It’s just an interesting combination. [Even though] we exist in different musical worlds, there is this big overlap—that’s the area we work in, and it works really well. It seems to, anyway. We enjoy it, and the audience seems to enjoy it too.
So what is it like, John, doing something like this that might be a bit bit less jazzy than the stuff you usually do?
JS: It’s definitely more out of the R&B area, but you know, the old R&B, especially from New Orleans and stuff, that all is so jazz-related. It comes from a time when R&B music was coming from mainstream swing, you know? And that’s the New Orleans story. That’s why that R&B that came out of New Orleans would swing so hard, because New Orleans musicians were from the city that invented jazz. So I’ve always been able to play in that area, you know? As a jazz musician, it’s always felt like home to me. Plus, I really started out with blues guitar—B.B. King and that whole thing—before I got into progressive jazz, so it feels good to me. There’s probably some stuff that I wouldn’t try doing with Jon that I do when I play in a jazz context, but I never miss that. At the end of the night I always feel like, “Wow, this is great.” Plus, the blues-funk quotient goes up, and that just excites the hell out of me.
How would you describe each other’s playing style?
JC: I admire him. I don’t understand what it is he’s doing—his mind is way beyond mine. I don’t understand him, I don’t know where these notes come from, but I love it. Being a musician, I know there’s a logic to them and there’s genius at work. But I think that’s kind of the glue that makes it work for me and him—that I have no pretensions to being a modern jazz musician [and] profess being a complete ignoramus when it comes to all that. I grew up in New Orleans and I know how to play the piano and get down, and I think he really digs that. We do two very different things, so I think it’s kind of refreshing for him, and it’s very entertaining and refreshing for me too. It’s an odd marriage, but it actually really works well.
JS: Cleary has devoted his life to [New Orleans music]. He’s really the successor to James Booker and to Professor Longhair and to Mac [Dr. John] Rebennack. He’s the guy, as far as I know, who really carries on that tradition—this kind of select New Orleans-style of playing that a lot of people in blues and stuff give a nod to. Cleary plays the whole tradition and is an expert at it.
JC: You know, we play R&B songs. He loves blues and R&B. The songs don’t have to be incredibly complicated to appeal to him, which I think is often the case with very clever jazz musicians. If you’re a linguist, you like to have lots of big words, but sometimes a brilliant linguist can express himself perfectly using the same vocabulary that you or I would use. It’s a bit like that. I think he likes a challenge, but he really gets the soul of down-to-earth rhythm and blues music. I think that’s probably what he started out listening to, so he gets it completely. And that’s really what New Orleans is. New Orleans has its degrees of sophistication in other areas of music.
But it’s fun for me, I basically play the material that I love. I’m singing, so the material is kind of down to what I like to sing. It’s quite an eclectic mixture—it takes in everything from Fats Waller tunes to Jelly Roll Morton tunes to Meters tunes to whatever we feel like playing. It’s slightly different every night. I’ve played with some great guitar players—I’ve played with Eric Clapton, Taj Mahal, B.B. King, Big D, Snooks Eaglin, Walter Washington, and also Bonnie Raitt—some great players. But John, he’s in a different category altogether. He spontaneously improvises and creates stuff, and it’s different every night. He’s going for something. So that aspect of it is very entertaining. I’m as entertained on the stage as the members of the audience are when John’s taking a solo, I’ve just got a better seat than they have [laughs].
Both of you have collaborated with countless artists. What’s your mindset going into a situation where you’re playing with another musician—especially if it’s their music, or if it’s the first time you’ve played together?
JC: In that respect, John and I are probably very similar in that we both have a lot of experience being sidemen in other people’s bands and being bandleaders too, and not many people get to do both, to occupy both those chairs. I’ve always felt it was an important thing for me to do, to embrace the discipline that’s required when you’re a sideman in somebody else’s band. You have to play in keys that you wouldn’t usually choose, you have to learn to take direction and memorize stuff and be quick, to know when to come up with suggestions if they’re helpful. As a bandleader, you have to give good direction, not to stifle the genius of the talents of your sidemen but to put your foot down when you feel strongly that something has to be this way rather than the other way. And so you learn to be something of a diplomat, but you’re also very concerned with being the one brain that’s looking over the finished sound that is your stock and trade, or whatever it is you’re actually listening to coming out of the speakers. I think it’s good to occupy both. It’s been a privilege to occupy both of those positions on and off in my career, and I think it’s probably been the same for John. Also, put us together, it makes it very easy. There’s no egos or anything, you just say “let’s do this,” or “this’ll be good.” “Alright, great.” “On this bit, let’s just do that.” “Alright, next song.” We’ve both been doing this a long time.
JS: Well if it’s somebody else’s idea, then you just try to play the music. Usually now, at this point, even if it’s somebody else’s idea, I only do it if it seems like it’s going to make sense. Even though it seems like these are completely disparate musics—like modern jazz and the stuff that I do and New Orleans R&B. I’ve been a New Orleans R&B fan for my whole life, and I feel very close to that music, even though it’s a little different from what I play, and I couldn’t claim to be the real-deal or anything. But I’m not the real anything—I’m just me. I just feel absolutely at home, playing this stuff with Jon.
Also, a lot of times when it’s just two guys, you feel like you have to make up for the lack of big band, but I don’t do this like that. I actually really like the naked quality that can come from two musicians playing without drums or bass, and also the chamber music aspect to it. But I don’t try to turn it into something else. I haven’t done that much without bass and drums, but doing it with Jon—again, he’s such a complete thing unto himself, he doesn’t even really need me. So I feel like I’m just kind of floating over this great big band, you know, playing my solos and comping my little rhythm guitar thing. Just getting in the groove.
JC: And there’s always room for things to change on the gig, there has to be—the belt has to be loose enough to allow you to move around a little bit. You tighten it up too much and you can’t breathe. So there’s that fun element too. So there’s humor in it. And sometimes I’ll fuck up and make a mistake and sometimes he’ll make a mistake. More often me, I’m sure of it. But when you loosen up a little bit, that’s the fun part, because then you can take your mistake and turn it into something hip, and we have a laugh about it when we get backstage afterwards. So yeah, we have a good time. It’s like two old mates getting together and having fun, really.
