Josh Clark and Reed Mathis at Summer Camp – photo by John Schulze
Josh Clark has had a productive year. That much is sure. With the release of Tea Leaf Green’s latest studio album, the cleverly titled Radio Tragedy!, with its implications of another time and a mysterious crime, the guitarist/vocalist with his quintet appears ripe for another round of touring in support of the album. However, after a summer season where the band supported Matisyahu, exposing its music to a whole other different kind of fan base, he also dips his feet into the waters of side projects. Indeed, on September 15, Josh Clark and the Holdouts play a gig at San Francisco’s Boom Boom Room, a mere couple of weeks before TLG’s homecoming gigs at San Francisco’s Independent, while also being an occasional member of the satirical rock band, Fancy Ketchup.
Jambands.com caught up with Clark the day after a “hole in one” prevented the musician from doing an interview. On this day, Clark was “at the studio in Oakland, working on the Holdouts, a side project with Cochrane [McMillan, TLG drummer],” further blurring the artistic imagery between his many roles at this point in his career. Clark is in fine form, as always, as we discuss the latest album, the current state of music, the industry, touring, the wonders of happenstance, and the man’s sleep paralysis, which has not only hampered his rest on occasion over the years, but influenced his art—on stage and on the canvas. Nevertheless, any misfortune seems to be turned on its head by Clark, and that, in the end, may be one of the main reasons why his charm overpowers his adversity.
RR: I want to start off with the hole-in-one-story from yesterday.
JC: Oh, yeah. (laughter) Actually, our tour manager and main road dog, Todd [Wallenbrock] and I were golfing. I wasn’t even going to go, couldn’t afford it, or whatever, and he said, “This is my treat. I’ll take you.” Basically, maybe he knew it was going to happen so he had a witness there. (laughter) Anyway, we were on the eighth hole, a little par three, he lifted it up in the air, it looked good, hit a little bank, and goes right inside, flips right in. Yeah, I had never seen a hole-in-one before in my life, and it was by my buddy. Incredible. And, then, you know, we celebrated. He had to buy everybody shots after that, which rendered me incapable of conversation.
RR: Since you mentioned that you were in the studio working with Cochrane, how has the two drum setup changed the live performances for Tea Leaf Green?
JC: I think it’s freed us up a lot and made us more dynamic, it’s made us listen to each other more again, and we’ve rediscovered all the old songs along with the new stuff that we are creating. It brought a freshness to everything for one. Trevor, Scotty, and I have been together for thirteen years now, so we know what all of our shit is. (laughs) But, to bring somebody in who is really stoked and enthusiastic and just that attitude has probably shaped the sound more than general skill or chops or anything like that. In terms of style, Cochrane and Scotty are two completely different drummers how they approach it. We call Scotty the “Iceman.” We’ve called him that since we were kids. He’s always
really straight ahead and really steady and always keeping a steady backbeat and super solid. Bringing in Cochrane, you get a lot more of these little flairs and these little flourishes here and there that maybe Reed [Mathis, TLG bassist] can follow around and jump off the path and go on a little side trip while everything still maintains, and is steady, and the train doesn’t go flying off the rails. It’s actually been kind of fun. I think, for me, it’s been making music a real…it’s always been a pleasure for me, but it’s a real joy again, something I really look forward to doing—I want to get together and play.
RR: It was an accident how he joined the band, too, because of Scotty’s injury.
JC: Right. Yeah, totally. It was never planned. For years, everybody suggested, “Why don’t you add this? Why don’t you do this?,” and everybody was always, “Ah, fuck it, this is our band.” Whatever. We sound the way we sound. We aren’t going to add anything that we don’t have to. Obviously, when Ben [Chambers] left, we needed bass. (laughs) Yeah, it was a complete accident because Scott busted his ankle up really bad, and was injured a lot longer than it was supposed to be. We had our tour booked and everything, and we needed a drummer, so, fortunately, Cochrane had been working on our record Looking West with us, and this all happened around the CD release and party.
He knew that record to at least fake it through. We had Scotty setup on the drum kit sans the kick drum because his ankle was busted. He sort of just conducted Cochrane over there, and Cochrane did the best he could, and it actually wasn’t that bad. I enjoyed playing that first show with him. Everything got super-slowed back, and we created some interesting stuff. In some ways not worse or anything; you can have just as much energy in slow stuff as you do with really rocking stuff if you approach it correctly. Everything had enough speed to it, but that is what I remember about that first show—really slow, but different and interesting.
RR: Are you focusing on the engine room because you have to at that point?
JC: Yeah, well, when we first started, things were kicking back like he was playing behind us a little bit. But it has been a year and a half, and now, we are just all up to speed. We’re all part of it—a true collective. A few tours, and boom, you gel in, and it is really exceeding everybody’s expectations.
RR: Which brings me to Radio Tragedy!, and a few months after its release, the tracks still have a very fresh overall quality. There is a new and potent TLG sound on the album, and what is fascinating is that you were also going through a transition period. Do you look back on that album and think, “We really nailed it.”?
JC: Yeah, I definitely was feeling that on the last two records. I think Looking West has a lot to do with this record—getting out there and not giving a shit while experimenting as much as we could in the studio on Looking West. We were learning the boundaries, and learning how far we could take something. That was finally a record for us to make that had no expectations, no money riding on it, no record company, or anything like that. We were free to do whatever we wanted for the first time in years with making a record—maybe, the first time ever. (laughs) Maybe it was a transition period in management and stuff, but nobody was telling us shit. We were like kids in a candy shop—“Holy shit, this is amazing!” We actually could have fun. (laughs) I don’t care if anybody likes it, or if it is successful.
While we were working on those sessions, we had begun the next record sessions. It sort of spilled into that. We learned from the mistakes made on Looking West, and, also, we learned from the breakthroughs we made on it. And, also, we took a year to really work this one through. I think the difference is that we finally got control of our art from outside forces. That’s probably the biggest difference, actually.
RR: How so?
JC: Usually, it was “well, you have a week to do this; here’s the deadline, we have to get this out.” There were other situations where, all of a sudden, you’d have where somebody in the organization takes it and “here you go, guys, the record’s mixed.” (laughs) “Here you, go; sorry, but these four songs are off it.” You’d think, “What?!,” and the record company is running with it, and off it goes. Shit like that happens even for little bands like us. It is so frustrating because there’s this thing that you make in the beginning that is supposed to be this exercise of your complete freedom from everything, from the norm, and from the business world. At least for me, that’s what rock ‘n’ roll was—it’s the big “Fuck You.” And, all of a sudden, your big “Fuck You” is being taken over by people with good intentions, but they’ve taken over nonetheless, and you’re powerless to work on your own art, it’s really frustrating.
You’ve also entrusted people to help you along and you’re thinking, “These people are good; they know what they are doing,” but as we’re getting older, and we’re growing into men, we know what we want, and we want to control it. And that’s how the last two records have been.
RR: Well, if you focus on that singular artistic mindset, more often than not, you find that is what a listener wants, too. We’ve both been involved in this particular scene for a while, and one of the stigmas thrown at the jamband world is that there is too much freedom. The genre is often not taken seriously because of that idea; the perception being that jambands just noodle away. However, Tea Leaf Green has emphasized songcraft over the years, as well, so you obviously feel that it’s been a double-edged sword—a rock ‘n’ roll band lumped into the jamband world, right?
JC: Yeah, well, absolutely. We’ve always liked…from the very beginning we’ve needed a singer. That’s one of the reasons we got Trevor [Garrod] in the band is that he can sing. We’ve always put an emphasis on singing. When you’re still carrying around songs from when you were 19, things you can’t get away from, and you’re still doing things from when you were just goofin’ off and you were learning your instrument and you’re having fun and because we haven’t changed our name, we are still Tea Leaf Green, and we have eras, you know…but, I think the jamband thing was really frustrating. It has turned into a word in the industry that is a bad word.
But if I were to describe the best fans in the world and the best places to play it would be hippie festivals and jamband fans at these festivals. (laughs) To me, it’s the best shit. And, yeah, there’s stuff that isn’t as good as other stuff like in any genre, but when you get the best of this world, this jamband world, which, I guess, I identify with the most; I just hate the name. I think we have the best of all worlds. We have amazing songwriters. We have people that can play the shit out of their instruments and circles around anybody else in any other pocket of the industry. There is also an emphasis on creativity and freedom in the creativity. It’s just a shame. I hope it comes back in vogue, again, and at least it’s just understood as not being some throwback, lazy fuckin’ thing because it’s really cutting edge and on-the-cusp as just as everybody else. For some reason we’re like the dorky cousin. I don’t know what we are. It’s frustrating.
I’m not going to jump ship and start wearing skinny jeans and move to Willamsburg, but (laughter) it’s just when you’re being called something that you’re not, and you know the truth, it is super frustrating. I feel a lot of people can relate, so put it in a song. (laughs)
RR: Let’s talk about that freedom and creativity. How much of an impact did Jeremy Black, the producer, have on Radio Tragedy! ? Did you come to the sessions with the songs, and he was able to easily identify the personality behind the songs, or did he just record the band really well?
JC: He recorded us really well, and he also had actual ideas and we also had the time because it was our place. It was the first time we had worked with a producer that’s also a friend of ours and someone that we are really comfortable with and everybody trusts. Making suggestions and things like that was very easy. There was never any kind of friction, or things like that. One thing about this band is that we’ve always been open to trying whatever. Maybe, people would put their foot down and say, “Let’s not do that,” but everybody at least tries it. We’re good at suggestions and that type of thing. And, in order to make that work, you need somebody that is going to make suggestions, (laughs) besides a band member. We have our baggage over the years, so maybe other people in the band making suggestions may not be as heard as someone who we all trust that is there. He would also pick things out that he found was interesting that maybe we wouldn’t have. It’s just good to have that outside perspective—somebody to push you, or tell you “that’s enough, move on.”
RR: Why don’t we talk about some songs. How about “You’re My Star?”
JC: Basically, a couple of years ago, I went through a breakup like many people in rock ‘n’ roll do, and then I started a band, the band I am actually recording with today, me and
Cochrane, called the Holdouts. I wanted to write and brainstorm a whole suite of music that is just breakup music, and, also, channel anger and all that into a heavier form. That was one of the songs from the Holdouts, and we liked it so much that it started to sneak into Tea Leaf Green when we came up with that. And it’s also a true story. (laughs) It’s funny because I write more when I feel I’m upset or depressed because if I’m happening to have a good day, I’m going outside, or going to the beach. I’m not going to be sitting down and writing while stuck in my house. (laughs) Throughout that relationship, I would actually say, “I won’t write a song because I’m happy.” So, then, when it was over, it was time to write songs.
RR: Reed’s “My Oklahoma Home” follows that gem.
JC: We’ve been playing it on tour and it fits in great with Tea Leaf Green material. He’s been writing stuff for us since he came aboard, and that was the first full song with the whole package, so we were stoked to get him on the record and a new voice heard on a Tea Leaf Green record is amazing. Another thing that Reed has been bringing big time to the table is backup vocal ideas. He is almost our backup vocal director. He never, obviously, did any singing in Jacob Fred [Jazz Odyssey, Mathis’s former band], but he’s a good singer. It’s awesome to have that and we’re learning that because with Ben, we didn’t really focus on backup vocals or really try, but that’s sort of the new phase of our lives we’re going into—trying to work that out, and trying to get it to sound good in a live setting and on the record. And on the record, it sounds great in a nice, clean listening environment.
RR: “Fallen Angel” follows next and there continues a nice flow to the record.
JC: Cochrane was the one who finally put together the track listings and how everything was going to flow. He had the whole master plan behind it. When it comes to [sequencing], I get so frustrated. It’s almost easiest to concede it to somebody who is really stoked about it as an idea. He was really fired up about it, and he did a good job.
RR: Describe the songwriting process of “Sleep Paralysis.”
JC: I wrote that after watching that Harry Nilsson documentary that came out on Netflix Who is Harry Nilsson (And Why is Everybody Talkin’ About Him?. I was super inspired and I couldn’t go to sleep. That’s also a true story. I have that problem—sleep paralysis. It’s a scenario where you have really heavy duty nightmares. What happens is that you fall asleep and go into REM sleep, and, then, your body wakes up, but your mind doesn’t. So your eyes open and everything goes ape shit—really hallucinatory, scary hallucinations; it’s not like Alice in Wonderland. I’ve always had it since I was a little kid. I didn’t know what it was until a friend of mine, she told me, “It’s called sleep paralysis,” and I had no idea there was a name for that. It changed everything around a ton for me with that to identify with that, so I wrote a song loosely based on that. And, also, having somebody there for you because, sometimes, you can be shaking around in
your bed, and it’s nice to have somebody next to you to pull you out of it. (laughter)
RR: Has sleep paralysis influenced the art that you draw and paint, too?
JC: Yeah, totally. I’m a very vivid dreamer, for better or worse. A lot of them are very visual, so it definitely comes out, especially when I’m doing free association and brainstorm-sketching. I think music and art exists for me to release all that sort of stuff which is happening in there—keeps me from insanity.
RR: The cover you created for Radio Tragedy! appears a bit more thought out.
JC: Yeah. It was getting down to crunch time, and we had a couple of options that we wanted to do that fell through. I wasn’t going to do the cover at first, or the art for this record, but we just ran out of time. I can work quickly, so it defaulted back to me. I stayed on with Todd, our tour manager, in the equipment truck while everybody flew home, and drove with him somewhere. I can’t remember where it was, but I had a really long drive, like three days to think about it. I wasn’t sure…I had always been thinking…we had the title, Radio Tragedy! ; I was thinking what that would be. Originally, I had thoughts of getting together a college of old pictures of families around the radio when radio was the main family entertainment force when people gathered around like they would a T.V., or a camp fire, or whatever.
I wanted to get some of that, and harkens back to these gentle feelings, but, also, have it against the edge of a tragedy and I was wondering what the tragedy was, and, then, it popped into my mind to make it completely literal, like the tragedy is the family radio threw itself out the window. Or, somebody did. There had to be a little mystery, too. Just the thought of the old families in the 30s led me to pulp fiction and the old detective comics. I thought, “This will be a blast to do and a pretty sweet concept to have this crime scene (I started sketching the crime scene), and this would be awesome to have a ton of people gathered around with different reactions to it.”
I had to invent a couple hundred people, and put in some real people, too. It was super fun to have that and invent all of these personalities of who I thought they would be. As far as the booklet, it was, “Wow, man, this is just too perfect,” because it looked like it could be a mini-comic book. I didn’t have a ton of time, so I just illustrated certain pieces of songs, a scene from a song, and use the comic’s text boxes for the lyrics. That turned out to be one of the most fun things I’ve ever worked on, and one of my favorite projects.
RR: Again, just by happenstance.
JC: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. These things always kind of…we’ve stuck to it for whatever comes our way. We’ve never been a band with a strategy, necessarily. (laughs)
RR: Obviously, the title of the record could be interpreted as how I would feel as a musician if I was writing great songs, and none of them were being played on the radio. Meanwhile, lame songs dominate the airwaves. Why does that happen?
JC: Yeah, well, money and money is why that happens. There are a lot of places where you can still hear good radio. There are a lot of college stations and actual DJs in the world that are doing it out of love and care and play a bunch of stuff that maybe isn’t popular, or people haven’t heard. Big radio stations have advertisers and they want to make sure that people are going to listen to what’s on there, so you’ve got to go for the lowest common denominator. It’s moving on and morphing into something else. I’m just really referring to the tragedy that it’s gone. If there was a Golden Age of Radio, it’s gone. Now, it’s going to be a golden age of something else.
RR: Which means a musician has to tour quite a bit these days. TLG played a series of dates with Matisyahu this summer. How did that combination work for you?
JC: It was a great combination. We were being exposed to pretty much a brand new audience. I think that we have been swimming in the same channels for a really long time, and people have made up their minds—whether they’ve even seen us or not—and people have decided whether they like the band or they don’t like the band, despite what their criteria might be. We’ve been in that scene long enough for that to have happened, and there is no convincing otherwise. So, there’s a shitload of people on planet Earth (laughs), and to be able to play to some new ears who don’t necessarily have a preconceived notion, or some judgment, and they can figure it out if they like it or not—at least we know it is a fresh start to a degree.
RR: Speaking of fresh starts, can you tell me about Fancy Ketchup?
JC: (big laugh) Ummm…yes. I am tentatively not in the band. (laughs) No, I’m in the band. I have my alias. I’m Rick O’Shea. [Besides Clark/O’Shea, Fancy Ketchup consists of Scott Rager aka Juan Agues, Christopher Rager aka Sisyphus Coxx, and Brian Jones aka Jack Diablo]. It’s Scotty’s brother’s brainchild. When we were kids growing up, Chris and Scotty had a band in high school called Salty Onion that was super popular around the high school. They played shows on the Sunset Strip at the Whiskey and Roxy. I actually auditioned for the band when I was like 15 and I didn’t make it. (laughter) The material is really satirical, like over the top satirical, borderline offending people. (laughs) The point is not to offend; the point is to hold up a mirror, and talk somebody into thinking a little bit more. There’s more to it than just a circus effect. I always liked the Salty Onion. [Christopher] has been writing since. We’ve had the songs for years, and we’ve been joking about it, and we finally got together and got some studio time and made that record. I think our “Baby Dick” video got banned from Facebook. (laughs) We heard from Facebook. That’s how tough we are.
RR: You’ve got a pair of homecoming gigs at the Independent in San Francisco on September 30 and October 1. How has that scene changed for TLG over the years?
JC: We rarely play at home. It seems we do it once a year at best. There have been a lot of ups and downs. I almost feel slightly forsaken at home. People definitely don’t show up like they used to here, but our shows are so great on the East Coast. We have way better shows on the East Coast (laughs) in terms of attendance than we do at home. I don’t know what happened. I think everybody maybe grew up and had babies or something, and now they don’t go out.
RR: You think the intensity of the musical experience on the East Coast might be consistent, whereas, it isn’t that way back home?
JC: Maybe, it is because in San Francisco, nobody is really from here—it’s a transient town; it comes in waves, there were waves of people with great interest, and, then, people come and they go. They move out. I’m hoping that the two nights at the Independent are going to be kick ass and slammin’ because I love playing here. This is my home. This is where we created this music. Much of our music is about this city and this state. It’s fun because we get to see all of our really close friends and family. There’s definitely more of a festive air about it than any other show because it’s a homecoming. We usually get a little bit of time off before, so we have a chance to get into the rehearsal space and actually practice and work up some special shit. I’m stoked. We’re definitely going to work a week before hand to make the shows really special and have a lot of surprises.
RR: What do you have going on after that—in the fall and beyond?
JC: The fall is going to be pretty mellow. We want to start recording the next record. And, then, get some weekend gigs. I’m going to try to work a lot of Holdouts stuff, and wherever else I can fit in, but also take a little time. I might go to the mountains and hide and fish for a month or so and get out of the grind for a little bit and enjoy the great big world outside.
