Having a conversation with David Lemieux, it’s easy to understand why Rhino records retained his services following his former position as archivist with Grateful Dead Productions. Not only would his easygoing personality be a positive in working situations but after two decades as a fan, tape trader and employee, when it comes to discussing the contents of the Dead’s vault, Lemieux has a memory akin to a speedy computer program.
With the Core Four’s signing up for a licensing deal with Rhino several years ago, Lemieux thought that his tenure with the Dead was over. Instead, he’s continued to work on releases such as the Road Trips series, and its latest installment Vol. 2 No. 3: Wall of Sound, plus other band projects. He’s also moved into other roles. On the Grateful Dead channel at Sirius XM, he contributes the daily “Today in Grateful Dead History” program. He also blogs weekly in the Taper’s Section page on the Dead’s website, www.dead.net.
I catch Lemieux as he’s making a purchase at the local farmer’s market up in Victoria, British Columbia. His enthusiasm for his purchases nearly matches his role as an archivist and producer of audio and video releases for the Grateful Dead. Ten years following the passing of Dead tape archivist Dick Latvala – he of Dick’s Picks fame – it looks as if the Vault still has someone committed to quality, and of equal important for Deadheads everywhere, quantity.
“I was thinking about this the other day, my day-to-day Rhino duties are listening to music and coming up with release ideas usually on spec because you want to have them ready for when they do call and tap you on the shoulder and say, ‘What’s next?’ So I’m doing a lot of listening, dozens of hours a week and putting together releases and things like that. When it comes time to produce, go into production and just remastering, it really becomes more than a full-time job because at that time it’s the same thing we did at GDP. We collect the photos, we’re talking with liner note writers, we’re proofing material, package design, CDs, [engineer] Jeffrey [Norman] will ask different questions.
“All those things between Sirius and the website, the day-to-day production duties on Rhino Grateful Dead releases. When film festival time comes {He’s on the board of directors and programming committee for the Victoria Film Festival] which is really busy for me from September through November, December — the festival’s in January — I really don’t find myself with that much down time.”
RHINO
JPG: When Rhino acquired the Vault with the licensing deal three years ago, did you anticipate that you would remain in a similar role? Back in 2005 during our first interview you said that as you listened to a given show and checked it out for use, it would be digitized. The sense I had was that after everything was digitized you would be moving towards other areas at GDP?
DL: I thought in 2006 that my time was over with them and I was not unhappy or happy about it. It was time to move on to the next step. However, I let it be known that if they ever needed any help with anything I’m there. That was really it. It wasn’t a formal proposal. They recognized, ‘You know what? It would be good to have somebody who’d been working on this stuff for seven years.’
With any archives you hear the phrase ‘institutional knowledge’ a lot. And that’s when you can have the greatest archiving system in place but if somebody isn’t working that archive for 20 years or in my case, seven, there’s a certain knowledge that goes beyond the organization and the physical tapes. We refer to it as ‘institutional knowledge.’ I’m certainly not the only one who has it. There were certain things where, basically, I can save a lot of time in that there’s no point putting up a multi –track of a show, for example, that I know the tapes are messed up. If somebody says, ‘Oh, this is a good show.’ ‘I agree, but we’ve looked into and the tapes have no guitar track,’ or there’s a certain thing that might not be labeled on the tapes. It’s a good thing to know.
Over the years, I think it was recognized that Grateful Dead Productions did a lot of good things. I’m certainly not taking the credit for that. I’m talking about [engineer] Jeffrey Norman and Cassidy [Law], Eileen [Law] and Bob Minkin on the package design side and the whole marketing side. For an in-house operation selling most of our releases by mail order, I think we did a great job. I’d like to think all of the music had a place in the official release canon and when it closed down, there was no bitterness on my part that it was moving down to L.A. and the company was shutting down. There was an immense sense of pride that we built it up, whether it was a release series like Dick’s Picks, the quality of something like The Grateful Dead Movie or the Fillmore box sets. When it went down, we were very proud that this was the level of perfection, if you want to call it that, that it was going to be carried on by another entity. If they wanted us involved, that would be great, and if they didn’t, then we sincerely wished them good luck. Ultimately, we want to see the quality of the releases, both the music, the sound quality, the overall packaging and the marketing to continue with where we brought them with GDP. I think everybody would’ve loved it to continue forever, but at the same time, it is certainly something that we can be immensely proud of.
DICK’S PICKS TO ROAD TRIPS and COMPILATIONS VS. FULL SHOWS
JPG: You mentioned the Dick’s Picks, it stopped at 36. One always heard that [original Grateful Dead archivist] Dick Latvala left a lot of notes on shows. Did he have anything to go beyond that? Why did it stop at 36?
DL: With Rhino coming onboard and with 36, I think it was the thought process that if this thing ever got to 79, how were people going to keep track like Dick’s Pick’s 62? I think more than anything, it was more of a logistical way to make sure that the numbers didn’t pile up so high. Really in essence, the release series hasn’t changed that much. There’s been certain configurations of it that have changed a little bit. It’s a two-CD set now with a bonus disc (the Road Trips series). Overall, we select music based on this is the right release for now. Did you ever see the movie, The Big Lebowski?
JPG: Umm-hmm.
DL: You know how they referred to him? He was a Dude for his time. He was a Man for his time. So, when it comes time to release something that’s the right time… If we know we haven’t released anything from ‘68 in awhile, now is the time to release a ’68. So, we do. Whatever the name of a series is, frankly, is irrelevant. We feel that we’re paying tribute to Dick everyday that these tapes are taken care of.
In terms of that, it was sad to see the name Dick’s Picks go. Ultimately, to get down to the essence of this, which is to make sure the tapes are preserved and, more importantly, make sure that the good music gets out then, yeah, a name change. You know the Warlocks became the Grateful Dead. Things change names and ultimately the tribute is in the music, the tribute to the band, to Jerry, to Pigpen, to Dick. To everybody involved who made this music or in Dick’s case preserved it. I wasn’t part of it but I think it wasn’t any big philosophical change or anything. It was just time for a change.
I’m very proud of the Road Trips series while at the same time I wish we had a little more flexibility and do four-CD sets sometimes. But we can’t. These are two-CD sets and I’m very much a person who lives the way things are. I don’t complain about the way things should be. I’ll raise concerns and if they don’t get listened to, then I’ve done as much as I can.
JPG: According to Wikipedia, it ran from ‘93-2005.
DL: Sounds right. The last one was 36 in October/November of ‘05. They went on for 12 years. Whether it was good or bad, it was just a name change and the music continues. You see things like Hartford come out and Winterland ‘73 box set, so you still get to see music being released, which is really the key element.
JPG: But, where the Road Trips are designed as a cool compilation, like a mix tape, I thought that Dick’s Picks relied on full shows.
DL: I think less than half of the Dick’s Pick’s were complete shows.
JPG: Really?
DL: Yeah let’s go through them. One was not a complete show. Two was not. Three was not. Four was a compilation of two shows. Five and Six were. Seven was not. Eight was not. Nine was. 10 was not. 11 was. 12 was not. 13 was. 14 was not. 15 was. 16 was. 17 was. 18 was not… So, as you go, I’m literally walking down the street, this is off the top of my head.
I think there’s a place for complete shows and I think there’s a place for compilations and I think there’s a place for incomplete shows if there’s tapes that have songs that are technically messed up and we can’t really put that out. Also, stuff that’s just a bad thing, we can’t put that out either. Ultimately, we have to represent the band in a good light. If you do look at the history of the Dick’s Picks, you go through all 36, at least 15 and maybe even 18 or 20 are not complete shows.
JPG: I knew that a few were not complete shows. I didn’t realize it was such a large amount.
DL: Recently, I’ve heard about this recent outcry for complete shows and somebody mentioned to me the same thing, ‘Dick’s Picks, they were complete shows.’ And I thought about it quickly. I know the Dick’s Picks like the back of my hand, so I know which is which. I literally did what I just did with you. Counted up to 36 and I think like 18, 19, 20 are not complete shows. And some are flat-out compilations of three shows on three CD’s. It was pretty much what we’re doing. We always have the place for something like the Winterland ’73 box set, which 10 years ago never would have seen the light of day, but instead we can do a nine-CD of every note played. So, we do get to do that. We get to do the Hartford ’77 thing. You know we definitely get to mix things up. It’s a little different than the way it was only because I think we’re a little more aggressive on the release schedule of Grateful Dead Productions. We’re not quite doing a DVD a year any more.
I think that complete shows are great when they’re available , first of all, and warranted. And at the same time, I think compilations have a great place. When you think of the great compilations in the Grateful Dead canon are things like going back to Europe ’72 and Skull & Roses. You go to Dead Set and Without a Net, these are live albums, but they’re compilations. I wish we could do everything as a 10-CD box set, but knowing that’s not possible. And I also wish every tape was in A1 mint condition and had the ability to have every song sound phenomenal, but it’s just not the case.
JPG: You have to work with what you have to work with.
DL: Exactly, you nailed it. Also, with so much music being available through tape trading or whatever it’s called now, downloading and tape trading and CD trading, everything is out there. And we’re very aware of that. So, why shouldn’t certain releases be the highlight because we know that you could in the same amount of time go and find the complete show? Instead, what we’re doing is presenting the highlights of things and some that were pretty darn high, these highlights. They’re really good. And doing the mastering as good as it can be in HDCD. Bumping up the packaging and stuff like that.
JPG: In regards to the Road Trips series, was that something that Rhino came up with and then came to you and said, ‘Okay, what do you suggest we put out for the first one and the second one and…?’
DL: The format was a decision made by a lot of people, I think by Rhino and their consultants, being two CDs. I think Blair Jackson did a press release or maybe just a website notice about what the target was for Road Trips, which was compilations and occasional complete shows, which you could probably find on the Dead website, www.dead.net. Just doing representations which is really exactly what Dick’s Picks have done. If you look at showing Dick’s Picks 14, two shows from Fall of ’73 and what it is, yeah, it’s a representation of two great shows, but it’s also a representation of that tour, of how good it was. I remember when Dick was working on that. That was right when I met him and he was so proud that what he was getting on there was everything that was very important to him in ’73, which was to say a “Playin’ in the Band,’ and a “China”>“Rider” and a “Here Comes Sunshine.” All that stuff was so important to him to be on there from ’73. It was a representation of the era.
We just did a complete show from ’68 that was phenomenal (“Carousel 2-14-68”). The format was decided to be two CDs with a bonus disc, so we’re working in that constraints with the two CDs. But it’s a challenge and it’s a ton of fun to work on ‘em.
JPG: Once they came up with the idea of the series, did they come to you for suggestions?
DL: Yeah exactly, for release suggestions. And then, they’ll throw a suggestion. They’ll look at the GDP history of the last few years and say, ‘Well, there hasn’t been a ’68 in awhile.’ They’ve done their homework. They know that the last ’68 was Dick’s Picks 22, Lake Tahoe. So they’re very aware. Sixty-eight’s a bad example because ’68 doesn’t sell well. On a musical, creative level, they know how important it is. They hear about it. They’ve got Deadheads on staff who know, that get the recommendations. So, they’ll call and say, ‘I’d really like to put out a ’68.’ That’s pretty much how the system goes. And you go through the tapes and you find out what’s best. There’ll be occasional tie in with other releases like when we did the Egypt album (_Rocking the Cradle_). I don’t want to call it an overload because it’s only a total of four or five CDs of material, but you kinda get it all out there. It’s pretty cool.
EGYPT RELEASE
JPG: To get the shows from Giza, Egypt out there. One heard so many times about the band being unhappy with the performances. Was that something that either you and/or Rhino convinced them that it wasn’t as bad as they imagined?
DL: That is one of my duties, to bring ideas to the band and run it past them with an endorsement or maybe a concern. Usually, when it gets to the point when I’m bringing something to the band, it’s at the endorsement level. And in the case of Egypt, we listened to some of the music, we knew them. I’m a tape trader from the same time you are. I knew the shows very well. I knew there was some great music on there. The key was finding out. We knew that the multi-track tapes, there were some notoriously messed up parts to them that we could not use. So, the first key was getting the tapes shipped up and finding out what was useable and what wasn’t. What we determined was that the first night in its entirety and I think half of the second night was unusable. Missing tracks. Missing vocals and whatever the case was. Putting together a couple of CDs, you know what? This is phenomenal music. Throwing out an example, the last three songs of CD1 , I think “It’s All Over Now,” “Miracle” and “Deal,” and you can hold that up to anything from 1978 and it’s phenomenal. It’s some of the best stuff of ’78. I think that whole release is like that.
Digging through the film stuff, we realized that there was some amazing film footage but not enough to produce a proper standalone big hype item. We were used to doing The Grateful Dead Movie and The Closing of Winterland. So to do less than that we thought, ‘Let’s bust our butts and put together a DVD compilation of what we have.’ We put in almost every song we had that had either usable video as well as useable audio. Once we got those ideas together and we informed the band that we were thinking about it, they raised some concerns. ‘Make sure you choose good stuff ‘cause I remember that stuff. We were tired. ‘We weren’t in tune.” As we got going, we started sending them things. Absolutely no critique back. Nothing negative. Just positive. I distinctly remember getting emails back that said, ‘Go for it.’ So, that’s where it comes from when they realize what we’ve done is narrowed down potentially eight or nine CDs of music — four or five of which were gone strictly because the tapes were no good and then another couple because the performances weren’t great. What ended up coming out of it was music that I think everybody could be proud of having put together from the band members having performed it all the way down to the production team and the marketing team.
So, everything does go through the band at some level in the production process whether it’s the Road Trips or Egypt or Winterland box set. If they have concerns, we take them very seriously and address them. Occasionally, there’s vetoes and occasionally, there’s requests to have things changed or tweaked a little bit. Of course, we honor those. At the end, I think we have something that everyone’s quite proud of.
WOODSTOCK, ROCK BAND, STARBUCKS
JPG: Keeping up with the idea of releasing something that the band members originally disliked. I see that on the revamped Woodstock box set it contains contributions from the Grateful Dead.
DL: That was another thing where I would give off to the band where [they felt] the performances were notoriously bad, but I’m pretty sure, nobody, the band members really listened to them in 40 years. And then, when The Woodstock project was pitched by Warner Brothers Home Video as well as Rhino doing the soundtrack, they looked at the tapes, both the film and the audio and said, ‘Wow! It’s not bad. It’s pretty darn good.’ We checked it out. I remember getting that “Dark Star” and being quite amazed. It doesn’t go into the crazy deep spaces of February ’70 or February ’69, but it certainly is a pretty good “Dark Star.” And the “Lovelight” is not only one of the longest, but it’s got some of the most interesting playing in it. So, we would pass it on to the band and they all agreed.
JPG: Are those the two tracks that are on there?
DL: Yeah. I think the DVD has the entire “Lovelight,” the 40 minutes or whatever it is. The CD box set has the “Dark Star. There might be one more song on the video.
Quite frequently there are projects like that that are really out of our hands because they’re done through Warner Home Video. I don’t know if you play video games, but there’s that Rock Band videogame and they licensed a lot of Grateful Dead songs for that. That’s in-house in the Warner gaming division. They come to us and say, ‘We’re going to do this,’ and the band agrees. They pick eight songs that they want to do and we listen to what they’ve done with those songs to approve them.
There was a Starbucks CD. Nothing went out without the band and me being involved in the approval process. Then there are things like Road Trips that are much more hands on. It goes much beyond an approval process. Involvement from conception right to the end.
JPG: I didn’t realize that they had anything on Rock Band or in Starbucks.
DL: Yeah. Rock Band, I think they’ve got at least six songs. It might be going up to 15 or 18. A lot of friends play them. I remember Blair Jackson saying, “Man, “China Cat” is one heck of a song to play.’ You’re playing Jerry’s part on “China Cat.” A buddy plays, his favorite one is “Alabama Getaway” because on guitar you can play Brent’s cool organ solo.
What it comes down to is there’s an incredible variety of things going on. At Grateful Dead Productions we were focusing our energies strictly on the CD and DVD releases. What Rhino has been able to do is allow us to continue that with things like the Terrapin: Hartford ‘77 and the Winterland ‘73 box, the Road Trips and all that kind of stuff. Then, they’ve been able to take it to the next level by getting a CD in Starbucks. I distinctly recall a few people online criticizing, ‘Oh, Grateful Dead CD in Starbucks.’ They weren’t criticizing that the CD was being sold in Starbucks, I think people were over that, they realized that this was the reality of how to sell music. I think they were more saying, ‘Oh, look at the track list, what is this a greatest hits?’ Exactly! It’s for a Starbucks coffee buyer who might not have listened to the Dead for 10 years. It wasn’t for the collector. It wasn’t the kind of thing that was meant for the hardcore Deadhead who wants to buy the Fillmore West box set. It was for the person who knows of the Dead and they know “Touch of Grey” and “Truckin’” but they might want to get turned on to something that shows them how diverse this band was. It was a great two-CD set with a studio CD, a live one.
Grateful Dead Productions didn’t have videogames. We didn’t have a film track on the Woodstock DVD. It’s allowed the flow of music maybe to abate it a little bit and I only say that because we were up to four Dick’s Picks and one or two DVDs and a box set and a rare cuts 1966. And then some Jerry stuff. I certainly don’t think we were putting out too much. We were putting out a lot. And what they’ve done, they’ve kind of brought that back a little bit and in a more structured release schedule while at the same time been able to do these much, much bigger things that we couldn’t have. Deals that simply we didn’t make because we were so busy working on the day-to-day CD/DVD productions that kept us going as a small independent record company. That’s what Grateful Dead Productions was. And a pretty darn good merch company, too. There was some tremendous merchandise coming out of GDP as well.
JPG: As far as the Woodstock, I’ll have to find my copy that I downloaded. I thought it was the whole performance.
DL: The thing about the downloads, the copy that we’ve all had there. There’s some pretty bad cuts in those. And this presents the whole “Lovelight” and the whole “Dark Star.” I’ve had those tapes forever from when I was a tape trader and I distinctly remember just being disappointed with the listening experience. I didn’t dislike the show but I remember going, ‘Oh, “St.Stephen” cuts half way. Oh, “Dark Star” cuts half way.’ This presents more of it.
Back to the whole Rhino thing, I think where the band benefits is they are allowed to keep their eye on everything that gets done through the approval process . They get to make sure that the Deadheads are kept happy with CD and DVD releases at a pretty good pace compared to most bands. They’re releasing at a phenomenal pace. At the same time, the partner with Rhino who have this phenomenal background in marketing and packaging and PR and ideas, and they come up with some pretty big ideas, there’s a lot of them that are really good. These ideas are just big, and they can implement them as Warner Music. I certainly see it so far, three and a bit years in, completely mutually beneficial and satisfying. I think that Warner and Rhino are very happy with it. I know the band is very happy. And on top of that, the band to know that their physical tapes are being stored so well, ultimately, I don’t know if it’s a perfect relationship, but it certainly feels that way on most days. That isn’t just me blowing smoke. You know, I’ve talked to you before, that I take the protection of these tapes and the propagation of the band’s legacy very seriously. Knowing that it’s in the hands it’s in, again, we sleep well at night.
JPG: That’s good. Now, when the stuff is digitized versus the actual tape itself, I don’t know if I’m asking trade secrets but are those stored separately so if something happens to one, you still have something to master?
DL: They are. I’m not trying to be cryptic here, I don’t know the specifics but digital copies are stored separately from the analog masters and another digital copy. So, the person who runs Warner has a very, very, good notion of preservation and recognizes its importance. Not just Grateful Dead, it’s an overall, anything in their control, whether it’s on licensing or ownership agreement, taking care of what the assets are. That doesn’t mean commercial assets necessarily. I’m talking about physical assets. They, fortunately, have a leadership group that recognizes taking care of the music of the tapes, on a physical level but it’s also on a cultural level. Knowing how important the music is.
ROAD TRIPS, ‘80s SHOWS
JPG: As far as the Road Trips, we’ve hit different years. When we talked previously you mentioned that there weren’t a lot of good multi-track tapes from ‘80s shows but a lot of PA tapes.
DL: They’re board tapes, but they’re PA mixes.
JPG: With the idea of trying to get the music out there, since Road Trips is a lot of two-track type releases, do you think some 80’s shows will start to surface?
DL: I think definitely and I only say that because we’ve done seven so far, and put some thought into number eight. I definitely, definitely think that the ‘80s will get hit. I don’t want to say soon because I don’t know what the next one is. We’re working on it, but I can say definitely will. And the only reason it doesn’t as often as it should is occasionally we get working on something and then realize that the tapes, the quality just isn’t up to snuff or we get sidetracked from something great from 1977, whatever the case is. That does happen sometimes. But, I certainly do think you’ll see some ‘80s era Dead for sure through the Road Trip series.
Some of the Dick’s Picks came from the ‘80s or from cassette PA tapes, so it’s really no difference. Whether it’s Dick’s Picks or a Road Trips, it’s the same thing. Nothing will change in that regard.
JPG: That will be good to see some of those because I’m a big Brent [Mydland] fan.
DL: So am I. So am I. I’ve been pushing for a DVD release for a couple years now. We’re coming on almost five years without a DVD, and I’m looking at this terrific Brent show. Most of the DVDs or videos are Brent era and early Vince. So, obviously, that’s where the bulk of video ideas come from, but we definitely have a couple, one in particular I’ve been pushing very hard, just as a tremendous example of the later Brent era Grateful Dead. Fingers crossed that that would happen.
DVD
JPG: Staying with video releases, we had talked about experimental filmmaker Robert Nelson’s short film of the band.
DL: That’s a great little movie. He’s still around. We talked to him. There’s nothing else. There are no outtakes from that material. He was less of a Deadhead while filming that stuff and definitely much more; quite renowned at the time and still is experimental filmmaker. He was filming material specifically to make an experimental film. That is in The Grateful Dead collection. It’s only nine minutes but I certainly think that there’s a place for its release, part of some DVD project some day.
JPG: I guess what I’m getting towards is I remember the Backstage Pass video where it was a compilation of music video clips and backstage things and live performances. I’m wondering if that would be put together with the Robert Nelson film plus bits and pieces from whatever else was found.
DL: It can be tough acquiring the footage and the rights. I think that if it was just a matter of digging around I think anybody would raise their hand and say, ‘Let me do it!’ But, it’s work. I certainly do think an effort would be made should a compilation like that come along. Although, there’s so much great stuff in the Vault that is similar, not the Dead on the train, but of similar interest or similar interestingness (slight laugh) that I think we could certainly load up a DVD or two of material like that without having to go outside. But that isn’t to say we wouldn’t go outside.
VENETA ’72
JPG: Which brings me to this. I know I have a bootleg copy and I’m sure others do as well, but any news on a release of Veneta ’72?
DL: I’m sure that people are working on it. I always say that because I’ve been watching people work on it now for six or eight years. For 1972 a representation of the band it’s certainly one of the coolest. Whether it’s one of the coolest or not is irrelevant, it’s one of the only. Also, it happened to be a good show. Unfortunately, the movie’s only 70 or 90 minutes. It’s not the whole show. I’m saying unfortunately, but from 1972 it would be nice to see five minutes of material like that. I definitely think that people way higher up than me are working on that kind of arrangement. I hope so.
Hopefully, someday it’s released only because I know that some people would like to see it. And also, the Dead have the 16-track audio. That’s the thing I’ve always looked forward to. I think the video’s good. I like it. But, what I’ve always looked forward to is a surround sound mix of the “Dark Star” because we have the 16-track audio. That, to me, would be worth the price of admission, to hear a DTS or Dolby Digital surround sound mix of that.
JPG: Yes. That would be very nice.
DL: Honestly, I don’t know how further along it was since the last time you asked [back in 2005] only because I don’t hear anything. And it’s the kind of thing where should it ever go into an agreement level then I would probably just get the call saying, ‘Okay, we need to get the tapes up to a mixing person.’ That would be my involvement.
JPG: Is this the type of thing where with Rhino involved now and its team of lawyers they could make something like this become a reality?
DL: You are completely right. That’s exactly the kind of thing that they are very equipped to do…I don’t know much more than GDP, but definitely they are much equipped to do that kind of thing. They’re the kinds of people who can make something like that happen. The video is under 90 minutes but the show is almost three hours, I guess. So, what would be cool would be the whole movie and then the CD as a separate release. Not separate but maybe an included release – the three-CD release from the multi-track mix. That would be pretty cool.
JPG: That sounds like it could be the next big release.
DL: Yeah, it could be. Could be.
[Stay tuned for Part Two, which will examine David’s relationship with Dick Latvala and offer additional insight into Lemieux’s current endeavors.]
