During breaks from his duties as bassist in the War On Drugs, Dave Hartley worked solo under the moniker Nightlands. Over two albums he combined his love of science fiction with a recording approach that welcomes the possibilities brought about by accidents.
On his latest effort, Oak Island, he creates an otherworldly sonic playground that incorporates the early ‘70s pop with modern rhythmic touches and a layered vocal approach that would make Brian Wilson smile.
His intellectual yet open-minded way to make music corresponds to the album’s themes of humanity, nature and robots.
Just as he did on Nightlands’ 2010 debut, Forget the Mantra, Hartley recorded the majority of the album by himself at home. Like everything attached to the “group” it’s a decision that has been thoughtfully considered.
JPG: First off, since it’s pretty much a one-man project, why go with the band name Nightlands rather just using your name?
DH: I think if you call it by just your name it presents a singer/songwriter thing and that’s not really what I do. Although I sing and write the songs, I never really considered myself that.
When you have a band name it can grow into something more and it can be anything you want it to be. Partly, I want it to become a band where people, my friends and my bandmates, become more invested in it. Also, it lets me hide behind it and do whatever I want with the project.
JPG: That’s interesting that you want this to blossom into a band project because your first two albums feature mainly you on instruments and vocals. Is it a matter of wanting new ideas to come in or just tired of doing everything?
DH: It’s not that I’m tired of it. Who knows? Maybe, I’ll totally go back to sequestering myself and making the next record alone. I’ve just seen it happen in other bands that I’m in, and it’s kind of a cool thing.
Sometimes, people start bands under the auspices of “This is gonna be a democracy. Let’s be a band.” And that works one out of a thousand times. A lot of times because they start with that concept, it short circuits so quickly. I’ve seen a lot of bands start where, “We are a band! We’re all members. We’re in this equally” and then it just goes to shit quickly because of that. Whereas, some of the other bands I’ve played in has started as a one-person thing and then other people are attracted to it because they like the music and the personalities gel. Then, over time, over the course of a few records, it becomes a natural band. Because it happened in this organic way, there’s a lot more staying power to that. There’s exceptions to anything you think about in music but that’s what I know and if Nightlands becomes a band it will become a band in that way.
JPG: When you play your live how many people perform in Nightlands?
DH: We’re a four-piece band; four people who all sing, drums, two synthesizers and me on guitar. There’s a lot of harmonizing. For the last record when I toured on it I tried to use some triggers and loops and stuff like that…and it’s actually cool and some people do that really well but I wasn’t interested in it this time around. I wanted to rely on the musicianship of the people in the band. That’s not to say that anything’s wrong with using loops or drumbeats or pre-recorded stuff but I just wasn’t interested in doing it this time.
But, it is a band and it’s more stripped down [compared to the studio versions of songs] out of necessity because the record’s really dense. I can’t tour with a 10-piece band right now.
JPG: You’ve spoken of how satisfying it’s been working on Nightlands’ two albums by yourself. I’m curious why not just continue the experience in the live setting?
DH: I may tour later this year by myself. It’s pretty daunting to go out there by yourself. Even though I like recording alone I like playing music with others. It’s really pleasing and my favorite thing is the sound of harmonized voices and it’s not something you can do by yourself unless you’re a Mongolian throat singer and I don’t have that ability.
JPG: Besides the musicians joining you onstage, will you be using visuals or some of your music videos?
DH: That’s something I want to get into. As of now, I’m not doing with that just from a logistical and financial perspective. Sometimes, people on the fly do that. Recently, I recomposed the score for 2001 the Kubrick film. That’s the next hurdle for me, the next move.
JPG: The “2001” performance, is it where the film runs while you’re playing brand new music or reinterpreting the soundtrack?
DH: The film plays behind us. It’s a unique thing to do with this film because most films if you want to play music to them you have to sacrifice the dialogue because the music and the dialogue overlap. But in 2001 there’s almost zero overlap between the dialogue and the music. So, what we did was we had a really elaborate time sheet for when the music was going in and out and then we had someone muting and un-muting the dialogue. Basically, the viewers were able to re-watch the movie with new music but still have all the dialogue and silence in the film. Then, I wrote some new songs and performed those. There were some improvisational pieces. My friend Jeff Zeigler, who is a great producer in Philly (The War On Drugs, Kurt Vile, Lymbyc Systym), he is this synthesizer guru and great with sounds. So, he and I created these soundscapes in various parts.
That was really satisfying. I really want to do it again. We’ve been talking about it. The problem is it’s expensive to get the rights to do that. Kubrick’s estate rightfully wants to be compensated when you do something like that. We did that. We sold a bunch of tickets and didn’t make a dime off it because we had to pay this licensing fee. I talked to promoters who said, “Yeah, we’ll just do it. We won’t license it.” I’m like, “No, I want to license it.” It’s a fucking masterpiece! Kubrick’s grandkids deserve to make money off of it.
JPG: Which is a nice thing because, as a musician, you’d want someone to pay you if they’re using your material.
DH: I don’t want someone ripping off my work. Those copyright laws are there for a reason and I’m totally fine. My goal for that performance was to break even and we did. I knew we would have to sell a fair amount of tickets to break even but I was confident we would. There’s some people in New York who want to bring us up to do it. So, I’m hoping that it happens. We’ll see.
*JPG: Did you also reinterpret something like “Also Sprach Zarathustra?” *
DH: No, we didn’t do “Also Sprach Zarathustra” or “Blue Danube.” For the “Blue Danube” theme I wrote a new song, “To the Moon,” which is totally different. It was really fun. That’s a playful balletic piece with these heavenly bodies floating around and I was like, “I want to put a different spin on it.” That makes me feel a slightly different emotion. I felt more awe and also nostalgia because the space race…that was such an optimistic time in the ‘60s. People thought that science and space was gonna lead us to the stars and beyond and eventually eradicate all these problems. And, of course, none of that happened. I look back at that time and have a lot of nostalgia for that thinking. So, I went in a nostalgic direction for some of the music.
JPG: Back to your videos. I watched the clips for “Born to Love” and “I Fell in Love with a Feeling.” They were different stylistically. I probably enjoyed “I Fell in Love” more. It seemed to fit with the song and the silver orbs were interesting visuals.
DH: Yeah, I’m really happy with the way that came out. My buddy Dave [S. Kessler] did all that and really did a great job.
JPG: …and you being painted silver to look like a robot. You could even go with the robot theme for shows.
DH: Yeah, I’ve dabbled with painting myself for shows. I would if it wasn’t such a hassle to get off. (slight laugh) It’s like a two week process.
JPG: Musically and onstage, you don’t really see that many musicians doing it all themselves. I saw Todd Rundgren last May and he’s done that in the past in the studio and in concert. With his set up now he could probably do it again with sequencers and programs if he really wanted.
DH: Yeah, one of the first one-man bands.
JPG: Maybe it’s a Philadelphia thing. He’s from there. Now, there’s you.
DH: I don’t think I quite have the chops of Todd Rundgren but…there’s certain things that people, do like the whole live looping thing, I’ve toured with a guy who did that really well and there’s guys like Owen Pallett and Jon Brion that do that. They do it so over the top and well and virtuousically that it’s not interesting to me to try and throw my hat in that ring. I just leave it to them.
That’s the same thing for people who are like, “I recorded every sound on this record by myself.” I never set out to do that because I’m not trying to prove anything by doing that. I’m not gonna be like, “I played everything on this. Therefore, I’m a very versatile musician.” The only reason I play most of the instruments on the record is because I was by myself and happened to do it. No one else was around. When people were there they contributed, and there are a lot of other musicians on the record. At the end of the day I played probably 90 per cent of the music on the record but there’s some pretty vital input from Michael Johnson, who’s a Philly producer who played some cool stuff on synthesizer. Eric Slick, he plays for Dr. Dog, he played drums. Adam [Granduciel] from the War On Drugs played some great guitar lines. At the end of the day they contributed a lot.
JPG: Who contributed trumpet on the album?
DH: That was me.
JPG: Oh, wow. That was a nice job.
DH: Thanks. I don’t play very often and I actually smashed my trumpet when the War On Drugs played Lollapalooza. The valve had been sticking for two years and this was this big show. I had oiled it for two hours and it stuck. So, I got so frustrated I threw it up in the air and…I haven’t gotten a trumpet since then. So, I have to get one. It’s funny. People keep asking me to play trumpet on their albums and I have to tell them, “A, I don’t even have a trumpet. B, I’m not that great.” I play on my records because I give myself 30 tries (slight laugh) because there’s no producer there so I just sit there and I do it ‘til I get it. But, it’s fun. I played it in high school. So, it’s cool to dust it off once in awhile.
JPG: That’s one of the advantages of doing it all by yourself, the first 29 tries…
DH: I’m really methodical. To me that’s actually fun, to keep doing it because things like percussion you just do it a bunch of times and you kinda get in a trance. Then, you can trick yourself into being in this hypnotic state and some really cool stuff comes out in those moments when you’re on the 15th take and you lose yourself a little bit. It’s almost like a form of meditation.
*JPG: There’s that word. (Hartley laughs) I was listening to “Forget the Mantra,” thinking of the term itself and then my wife, she’s a yoga instructor as well as leads meditation classes and mindfulness sessions and retreats. *
DH: I dabbled in that myself.
JPG: I did as well, then stopped and now I’m slowly getting back into it.
DH: Yeah, it’s weird. I’m a big believer in it but believing in it and actually practicing it are two different things. It takes a lot of discipline. I don’t practice nearly what I should.
*JPG: I think that’s the problem for most people, making the time.
DH: Yep.
*JPG: I’ll try again if you try again. *
DH: Fine. You got a deal.
JPG: Since the body paint was to make you look like a robot. Elaborate on the ideas behind that, the vocals, the imagery on the album cover and video.
DH: It’s something that I gravitated towards. I am really into science fiction. It’s a little bit based on some of the Isaac Asimov robot covers. It’s also the kind of thing where I love the Beach Boys and I love all these bands that have all these cool vocal blends. I chased that so far that it almost became…some of these songs I would be putting unbelievable amounts of overdubs vocally and get to the point where the blend is so thick that you’re actually in a robotic realm. As I was doing it I was like, “Wow! The vocals actually sound almost inhuman at this point.” Instead of coming back from that and saying, “No, I’ve got to back off,” I kept going further.
What I did was I started to offset the vocals with organic-sounding instruments. I kept most of the guitars acoustic. I started using hand drums; things that you could visualize like a trumpet. That led me to the cover art, which is the idea of this inhuman vocal or being in an organic environment. So, I have this silver man in the foliage, in the woods.
But, it also goes with…I always thought the idea of a sad robot. There’s something even more sad about a sad robot than a sad human to me. I don’t know why. Maybe, I’m just strange in that. I’ve always liked finding that line between human and inhuman and there’s something about a cyborg or android or robot that illustrates the differences more. It’s almost like a mirror to humanity.
JPG: There’s that idea of them being sad because there’s that lack of emotion other than C3PO losing his shit all the time or Woody Allen in “Sleeper”…but he wasn’t really a robot.
DH: Right. It’s still the same thing. No one’s going to look at the cover of my record and think, “Oh, is that a robot?” it’s obviously still me. That’s kind of the other idea of putting the paint on. I’m putting myself out there but also still covering myself with something. It’s like, “Here I am. I’m going to let you see me in a vulnerable state but actually I’m still retreating away from you.” It’s sort of the same thing with the music where I’m overdubbing my vocals so much that the ear’s looking for that lead vocal and it’s really not there. Actually, there’s a million vocals, and that is the lead vocal. It’s a combination of revealing and hiding at the same time.
JPG: In that same vein comparing Forget the Mantra with Oak Island, Nightlands’ debut album had numbers such as “A Walk in Cheong, 1969,” “WFMS, 1993” and “Longways Homebound 2010” with the spoken recordings. I don’t know if those were radio broadcasts or tapes you had of people talking or ones that were made specifically for those tracks…
DH: Those were all from my personal life. The one, “A Walk in Cheong, 1969,” the crazy story behind that is it was from a recording my dad made when he was 24 years old that he had forgotten about that I had found in the basement of my house, and had to have it painstakingly restored and transferred to digital because the tape was all decayed. He was in Korea in the Peace Corps when he made it. All those tapes are from things like that. They’re all from my life.
“WFMS, 1993,” that was me when I was 13. And it shows the different stages of my life and my family life. That record (“Forget the Mantra”) was less song-oriented, especially the second side of it.
*JPG: Yes, I was going to bring up that in comparison Oak Island is much more song-oriented. Is that a result of offering more of yourself now than in the past? *
DH: Yes. I just felt like I had more songs. The first one, I was just tentatively…it was the first thing I ever recorded by myself and I didn’t really know what I was doing. That was just how it came out, and I happened to be finding these recordings in my life of various people that I thought were significant. So, I started integrating them into the work. Then, when it came time to make the new record I had all these song ideas and they just kept coming and coming. That’s just how it ended up. That’s a natural progression. You want to challenge yourself as a songwriter. I’m sure on the next record I definitely want to experiment more with different songwriting challenges.
JPG: I found it interesting that a song like “Brothers” off the War On Drugs last album sounds like it could be on Nightlands’ latest.
DH: Hmmm…That is interesting. Ya know, there’s no doubt, I will never deny that there’s gonna be a lot of influence of Adam and the Drugs just because I’ve been involved with the War On Drugs for so long, especially his guitar playing has seeped into my guitar playing a lot and we also have a lot of similar musical influences. So, yeah, I could see that.
JPG: A lot of people view Oak Island as being influenced by ‘70s pop. I can see that on “I Fell in Love With a Feeling” with its poppy horns…
DH: True.
JPG: …but I don’t know if I would go as far as they do because your album sounds like a 21st century version of ‘70s pop. Is it good that I don’t see it like that or am I just missing something?
DH: No, I’m glad actually because some people were like, “It reminds me of Seals & Crofts or America,” these ‘70s band that are a little bit cheesy…or the Eagles. Well, they’re really not one of my favorite bands. I always thought that I was pushing a little bit more into the future trying to make something a little bit stranger sounding. But, whatever. People hear things through their own filters, and that’s probably based more on what they listen to than what I listen to. But, I would never argue with anyone’s perception of it.
Whenever I sit down and record, my biggest influences are the instruments that I have around me because I’m the kind of person that will pick up an amp off the side of the street and use that to make an entire record. I’m really into honoring chance in the moment as opposed to trying to be like, “Oh, I want to make this record sound like Simon and Garfunkel.”
JPG: The most that I got out of the comparison game towards other artists is “Rolling Down the Hill,” which reminded me of Animal Collective as far as the rhythm and the layered vocals at their least complex but I didn’t see a lot of ‘70s things.
DH: On that song I was definitely just trying to make something completely strange and a little bit frantic. I was actually playing with different recording techniques, warping my voice with tape and speed, etc., stuff like that.
JPG: You mentioned earlier about your approach of leaving things to chance when recording. I read that you have a philosophy degree and it kind of correlates, the connection of music with philosophy. Based on the idea of it being a process and being open to chance, does it make the idea of recording much easier to do?
DH: Yeah, absolutely. It’s not this thing that you plan out. That was an epiphany that I had. You don’t plan these things out. Music is not a plan achieved. It’s a state of mind that you can…that’s why people like Brian Eno, he’s such an inspiration. He’s not really a talented musician. He plays keyboards a little bit and he has a mediocre singing voice but he has such a unique perspective and philosophy about music that he’s almost mastered it. He’s mastered the state of mind that you need to be in. You need to be open to these things and a lot of it is letting your guard down a little bit and letting yourself be open to what’s around you and the ideas that you may already have. Maybe you have a great idea but the biggest problem is you just think it’s a bad idea. (slight laugh) That can be often the case. You have a good idea but you just think it sucks because you’re full of self-doubt. That can be the biggest problem.
I enjoy those thought experiments and those challenges. Maybe, that is one of the reasons I enjoy going about it by myself.
JPG: Have you tried his approach…I forget the term but it’s when you write ideas on cards and…
DH: Oblique strategies. I certainly read those a lot and they’re interesting to me. Some of them are more useful than others. There’s one, “Honor thy terror as hidden intention,” which is basically if you’re scared of something that’s a signpost saying maybe you should go that way. If something terrifies you, go in that direction because it’s a good thing that it scares you. And that’s always something that I was interested in.
Some of them are silly. Some of them are just like, “Turn it upside down” or “Go outside”…but some of them are pretty profound. The cool thing too is that he doesn’t say they’re right or wrong. It’s not like you should always do that. He just says, “Sometimes, if you look at one of these cards it might get you out of a jam,” which I think is really cool. He’s not saying it’s true. You don’t have to do that but it might work.
I guess I like more the broad concept of the Oblique Strategies, that you need to think differently sometimes. You need to hit “reset” on the brain. It’s not that you need a new guitar. You don’t need a better computer necessarily. You don’t need new strings. Maybe, you’re just not thinking with a clear head or you’re plagued with self-doubt or you need a drink of water. (slight laugh)
JPG: That reminds me of the documentary on the making of U2’s The Joshua Tree when they were talking about having such trouble recording “Where the Streets Have No Name,” spending weeks on the track. How, at one point as the album’s co-producer Eno…
DH: …he was gonna erase it.
JPG: Yeah! because he thought it was better to start from scratch with nothing than to keep trying to get what they had into shape.
DH: I almost wished he would have done that. It would have been the ultimate thought experiment, (laughs) deliberately erases the thing to force a band to go back to square one would just be really, really audacious.
JPG: In doing my research I found something on the Mystery Pit of Oak Island (http://www.unmuseum.org/oakisl.htm) and since so many other things are connected in regards to Nightlands I wondered if the album title has anything to do with that?
DH: I remember my dad telling me about Oak Island when I was a little kid. He described it as this place where they’ve been digging for treasure forever. It captured my imagination so much as a little kid. I totally forgot about it then I remembered my dad telling me about this place that they’ve been digging and digging and digging and digging for treasure for hundreds of years. It took me awhile to track down what the name of it was. When I found it, I found it to be a compelling story especially because people are still looking for it and it’s really clear that there’s nothing there. There’s no way that anything can be there, but it speaks to the desire that people have to find out what is behind the mystery. People are in denial. They just want to find this treasure. It appeals to something deeply human in us that there is something beneath the surface and that there is a reason for all these little clues People want to believe in the mystery. They want it to be real. They don’t want it to be like, “Oh, actually those boards weren’t placed there by Captain Kid or some other pirate. It was just some driftwood.” The truth is not what people want to believe. I just think that’s interesting.
But also, it captures my imagination. It just felt right to call the album that. I felt like the music I was making dealt a lot with mystery and surfaces and what’s beneath the surface and whether you really want to see what’s beneath the surface or perhaps you’d prefer it was a little blurry. So, that’s why I named it that. It just felt right. I followed my gut on it and went with it.
*JPG: I wanted to touch upon your interest in Cormac McCarthy’s Blood Meridian. It’s such a violent book whereas Nightlands’ music is the opposite, much more tranquil and peaceful. Is it the contrast that appeals to you? *
DH: You know, I have never been able to understand it other than I think that book is kind of the ultimate contrast because if you read that book it reads like the Bible in the sense that it’s incredibly timeless and it contains incredible humanity and incredible compassion and beauty. And yet, it is probably the most violent book I’ve ever read, if not the most violent. It is just crushingly violent.
I spent a good two years of my life just re-reading that book and I couldn’t understand why I had such a fascination other than I just couldn’t believe that someone made it. It’s like looking at an amazing piece of architecture or listening to “Good Vibrations” and say, “How did someone make this? Someone fuckin’ did this and it just blows my mind.”
Apart from that, I just kept re-reading the book and I came upon this word “nightland” in chapter 14 or something. A little bit later, I was reading 2001 by Arthur C. Clarke and I saw the same term. It was completely different context. It wasn’t a completely different use. I don’t know, I just jumped on it. I liked the sound of it. It’s just my intuition. Again, a lot of these decisions I make I just follow my intuition and later I find that there was some significance to it. There are some lyrics, that song “Suzerain,” on the first record is directly about Blood Meridian.
I don’t know why I was so drawn to it, other than admiration.
JPG: By admitting that you read it so much, do you encounter people that treat you differently and you’re like, “I just read it. I’m not endorsing it.”
DH: Oh yeah. I remember in the past I gave it to a girl that I was seeing four years ago. (slight laugh) “I’m really into this book…” She gave it back to me, “This is scary. What’s wrong with you?” “I just think it’s great.” (laughs) I realized that, maybe, I should think twice before…I was also in a weird place at that point. I remember I would ride around in my car around Philly, listening to the audio book, just blasting it. I pulled up to a stop light at one point, looked over and my friend who was sitting next to me, and I was sitting there dazed listening to this ultra-violent audio book, and he’s like, “Are you okay, man?” (laughs)
So, I definitely have gotten some quizzical responses from it but I go through obsessive periods with various books. Not all of McCarthy’s books are dark to that degree. All the Pretty Horses, that’s more of a romance. That is really great and worthy of obsession.
I have friends that have been obsessed with Nazism. There’s a lot of people who are obsessed with Nazism. I don’t think that makes them Nazis. Sometimes, you’re just obsessed with how did that happen in modern civilization? How in an educated affluent country did this come to pass? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being _interested _ in something that is dark.
JPG: Finally, you’ve done a couple very short tours to promote Oak Island. Is that because you’re busy with other projects?
DH: A lot of War On Drugs recording right now. I also do a lot of session work in Philly, playing bass. That’s kind of my livelihood.
I was going to Europe to support Oak Island but I unfortunately pulled the plug on it. Originally, I was going to do the U.S. tour as a band then do Europe solo. The band came together so well I couldn’t bring myself to leave them behind and I couldn’t afford to bring them to Europe. So, I cancelled the European tour. It was really hard to do because it was a great tour and I was looking forward to it but I felt like it would be a disservice to some of the promoters to go there and play solo without my great band.
